Citation down in Maine

Re: Citation Crashed bound for LNK Lincoln,NE

Yeah- I saw that too. Sad.
 
They launched about a half an hour after we landed. It took about ten to twelve minutes to go from dry to moderate ice pellets at the surface to moderate/heavy freezing rain. The line guy that was working that night is a friend of mine. He said she declined his offer of a spray of deice (we only have type 1, so it wouldn't have done a whole lot anyways), taxied to the short runway (way to short for us, let alone a CJ), then finally went to the correct runway before the 58 second flight. The weather went from great to horrid in the amount of time it took the CA and I to get to our hotel, check in, change clothes, and start walking/skating to a restaurant. It was a bad night to go flying.
 
Re: Citation Crashed bound for LNK Lincoln,NE

They launched about a half an hour after we landed. It took about ten to twelve minutes for the weather to go from dry to moderate ice pellets at the surface to moderate/heavy freezing rain. The line guy that was working that night is a friend of mine. He said she declined his offer of a spray of deice (we only have type 1, so it wouldn't have done a whole lot anyways), taxied to the short runway (way to short for us, let alone a CJ), then finally went to the correct runway before the 58 second flight. The weather went from great to horrid in the amount of time it took the CA and I to get to our hotel, check in, change clothes, and start walking/skating to a restaurant. It was a bad night to go flying.

Two on board, the pilot and her daughter. Severe icing that night.
 
Teller1900 said:
They launched about a half an hour after we landed. It took about ten to twelve minutes to go from dry to moderate ice pellets at the surface to moderate/heavy freezing rain. The line guy that was working that night is a friend of mine. He said she declined his offer of a spray of deice (we only have type 1, so it wouldn't have done a whole lot anyways), taxied to the short runway (way to short for us, let alone a CJ), then finally went to the correct runway before the 58 second flight. The weather went from great to horrid in the amount of time it took the CA and I to get to our hotel, check in, change clothes, and start walking/skating to a restaurant. It was a bad night to go flying.
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So, what would cause AI failure (glass no less) on a Citation in those weather conditions? Or what is just pure bad luck that things failed with such crappy weather?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
So, what would cause AI failure (glass no less) on a Citation in those weather conditions? Or what is just pure bad luck that things failed with such crappy weather?
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Most likely bad luck.

Brent
Glass Citation Driver
 
Sad, but disorientation, no, I don't think that's it. She departed in freezing rain without Type II clinging to the wings. This is a judgement error.

When you regard the family C525 as the minivan (per the articles)-- that's EXACTLY the problem. No analysis of the situation as in this string: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=264440#post264440

I didn't find a sounding for KAUG but did for nearby Lewiston. Notice at 7800 feet the little red knuckle just to the right of the zero degree line. Moisture ABOVE freezing, that would be rain, moving into the layer below. "FRZRA" that is.
 

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bbchien said:
Sad, but disorientation, no, I don't think that's it. She departed in freezing rain without Type II clinging to the wings. This is a judgement error.

When you regard the family C525 as the minivan (per the articles)-- that's EXACTLY the problem. No analysis of the situation as in this string: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=264440#post264440

I didn't find a sounding for KAUG but did for nearby Lewiston. Notice at 7800 feet the little red knuckle just to the right of the zero degree line. Moisture ABOVE freezing, that would be rain, moving into the layer below. "FRZRA" that is.
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Very interesting! Is there place we can get an expla
nation of how to read this?

Best,

Dave
 
Whats the difference between Type I or II DeIce fluid or any other type for that matter.
 
II sticks on the wings and is good for about 30 minutes of protection....
 
sba55 said:
It's also really expensive. I paid $600 for that once in the Bonanza (might have been Type 1, not sure) :eek:

-Felix
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She was driving a C525, for heaven's sakes.... My Mooney took $630 of type I deice at ASE about twelve years back.....(clear skies, lots of plastered on ice).
 
bbchien said:
She was driving a C525, for heaven's sakes.... My Mooney took $630 of type I deice at ASE about twelve years back.....(clear skies, lots of plastered on ice).
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Yeah, you'd think a 525 owner wouldn't be concerned about a $1000 bill. Less than her fuel bill for the trip, I bet.
 
Earthroamer said:
Most likely bad luck.

Brent
Glass Citation Driver
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There's a good chance that nothing was wrong with the flight instruments except perhaps the pitot/static ones which may have malfunctioned as a result of the ice. Wing/tail contamination could have produced a very confusing sequence of attitudes that might have led a pilot to believe that the flight instruments were giving erroneous indications.

But what's with the quote about the airplane taxiing through a ditch on the way to the runway???

"William Perry is the president and owner of Maine Instrument Flight, which operates Augusta State Airport. Perry said despite heavy sleet and freezing rain Friday night, Symons declined to have her jet de-iced before takeoff.
“She said she didn’t need it,” Perry said Saturday. “She declined the de-icing and off she went. … Presumably, she would have done a pre-flight and known she was covered in ice. Every car in the parking lot was covered in ice. …We just can’t begin to understand why this happened.”
Perry said there were other odd circumstances before Symons took off.
“She was parked in a normal parking area, then she turned 90 degrees from the way she was supposed to be going and went across the field and through a ditch,” he said. “(She) propelled the aircraft just blasting the engines to get through the ditch … and took kind of a meandering route to the end of the runway.”
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That is very true on the glass Lance but the attitude indicator would not be affected. Airspeed and Altitude COULD have been in error. Just dont have any facts yet. Either way, Lance....I stand by my post. Bad luck.
 
It's not really a ditch. Our ramp is separated from the runup pad by a big grass area. The taxiway from the MIF ramp takes you kind of out of the way to get to the runway, so a lot of people cut across our ramp as a short cut. The taxiway from our ramp to the runway is really narrow, and the sides are often obscured by snow...it wouldn't be hard to make the turn across our ramp and end up in the grass just next to the runway.

We only have Type I here in Augusta. They had Type III (never had II) for a while, but the pump wasn't designed for it and got burned up, so they had to go back to Type I. According to our hold-over charts, there are no HOT times for ice pellets (what was falling at the time of her departure). HOT times are 5-15 minutes for light freezing rain, and don't exist for anything more (heavier) than light freezing rain.

Andy, the line guy working that night, said she tried to taxi to runway 28 first, the 3200ft runway, before finally making her way over to 35/17, the 5000 footer.

The difference is, basically, Type I is really thin and really hot/high pressure. Great for cleaning off contamination and that's it. It's such a thin mix that it doesn't last long. Type IV isn't heated (much) and is under much lower pressure, but the stuff is thick (and nasty). It looks like snot on the wings, lasts much much longer, and stands up to higher amounts of precip. Just don't get it on your hands (or in the bleeds/ACM) because that smell doesn't go away.
 
aviationmentor had an interesting perspective on this. apparently she was based at his home field.

aviationmentor.blogspot.com
 
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