Cirrus down in Texas

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by PaulS, Sep 2, 2022.

  1. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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  2. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

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    Okay, so they don't always get the facts of plane crashes right... understandable. Use English much?

    "Neighbors said they are used to hearing the sounds of planes gone by, but when they heard what sounded like a crash, they knew something was wrong."

    Interesting flight path. Flight Aware
     
  3. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, they got very slow, some are speculating engine issue, but that's what the chute is for. Looks like they did pull but too late. The good news is it's a new Cirrus, so there should be lots of data as to what happened.
     
  4. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Engine issues seem to always be the top speculative item. It was a brand new airplane, chances of a non-pilot induced mechanical failure is exceptionally small. My guess is just more incompetent pilots flying something beyond their experience level.
     
  5. GaryM

    GaryM Pattern Altitude

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    That's certainly possible, but the 'bathtub curve' for failure rates does teach that mechanical failure is more likely when a system is very new, or very old.
     
  6. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Yes I know. Chances of it in this situation are strikingly small.
     
  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    "The Harris County Fire Marshal's Office was called to the scene after the agency said approximately 75 gallons of aviation gas spilled from the aircraft."
    Well, at least not exhaustion of fuel.
     
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  8. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    It looks as if they were less than a minute to the runway.
     
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  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds like they have some black box like things. What all do they record?
     
  10. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    In the G3/G5 Cirri I was flying you could bring the SD card home and get a load of CSV data.. impressive all the parameters it captured! It records virtually every engine parameter and most pilot actions. If that is intact and available it should readily show if the engine was a likely culprit.. and give clues if it was pilot induced at all

    I knew someone flying his brand new SR22T home (G5, maybe this was a G6?) and it lost just about all its oil, they had their CSIP CFI onboard. Was able to land (no chute) at CRQ and it turned out that a fitting was not secured properly. I'd much rather fly behind a 1,000 or even 2,000 hr engine than one that is brand new
     
  11. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sad RIP
     
  12. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The g1000 nxi ( perspective +) will record almost everything. Engine data, attitude, airspeed, pitch, configuration, gps info, I believe even control inputs. Hopefully this accident will be accurately reconstructed.

    Speculation is it was a new aircraft with some type of engine issue, again speculation. This is probably one of the toughest choices when you have caps. You are close enough that you think you can make it, do you fly it in or pull? In my mind, if this ever happens to me, I want to be high on approach with energy to spare, as soon as the runway starts slipping away I'll pull. If it's not a slam dunk, any question, pull. Not worth taking the chance.
     
  13. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    ^yeah but if you pull so close to an airport someone is going to chime in on POA that a real pilot or real plane would have easily been able to glide it in. Inevitably someone will mention Mooney and its roll cage and 600:1 glide ratio
     
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  14. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    The temptation to "make the airport" is very real... I experienced this earlier in the week.
     
  15. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :D:D


    Absolutely.
     
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  16. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    I'm sure that with the equivalent price of a house under your butt, it would be extremely tempting to hold off pulling the handle ... until it's too late.
     
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  17. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    I'm fascinated by the "make the airport" bias. I don't know where it comes from. I do concede my bias, living on top of a hot seat, in airplanes I can't physically dead-stick regardless of talent. But even in recreational life, as slow as my claptrapstic PA-28 stalls, and how lopsided my insured hull to componentTBO/IRAN cost ratio is right now, it's literally a disincentive to make a runway lol.
     
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  18. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I think that's the deal. Most of our planes we CAN dead-stick, and less than 1% of my flights have been with a parachute as an option.
     
  19. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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  20. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Kind of an inflammatory comment considering it was a Cirrus employee that was killed on a delivery flight.
     
  21. aftCG

    aftCG Line Up and Wait

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    Or they're not. My employer recently installed a brand new engine from Continental on one of our fleet planes. Oil pump sheared at 25 hours. Pilot noticed on takeoff and turned back. Metal all through the engine.
     
  22. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    u think just because they're a cirrus employee that automatically makes them a competent pilot?
     
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  23. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Can't we just all wait for BlancoL's analysis, pleease?
     
  24. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    Yeah, and the flip side is, the more experience you have, the more you might feel you could stretch something a little farther than the other guy in hopes of saving it - and go a little past the point of no return without realizing it.
     
  25. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That is true. Experience can be a both a blessing and a curse.
     
  26. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Suppose we’ll find out when they complete the investigation.
     
  27. LesGawlik

    LesGawlik Line Up and Wait

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    Also, the pressure for an employee to get the brand new wheels on a runway instead of destroying the airframe a mile or two short of the threshold. If his employer thought he could have made it back to the airport, he'd be looking for a new job. I know it's better than being dead, but it's a difficult calculus to make in extremis.
     
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  28. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I think the point was they are likely not over their head due to it being a Cirrus. I’m reasonably sure they have type specific training,,,,… but who knows??
     
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  29. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

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    Bet the Gryder (Grinder) will beat him to it ...
     
  30. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Scott D brought up the possibility of an outflow / windshear event due to nearby weather in another forum. He could have gotten blasted with a tail gust that knocked him out of the sky. Scary stuff if true.
     
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  31. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Looks like that whole flight was an exercise in dodging weather.
    Someone over on the thread for the Saratoga that tried to fly through a gap did I nice comparison of the real-time weather. Looked like on final was right up against a buildup starting.
     
  32. Hengelo

    Hengelo Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That would certainly be a less terrifying cause, relative to a catastrophic CAPS-resistant mechanical or a factory delivery pilot that somehow botched an otherwise benign final.
     
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  33. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    @Flying Keys any chance you could work that weather magic you did in the other thread ???
     
  34. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Line Up and Wait

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    This accident got me thinking about CAPS training and where engine failures are likely to occur. This flight was at the end of the day of a cross country, the end of the second flight, on a final (visual) inside of two miles, and it appears something goes wrong as they approach or pass under 1000 MSL (maybe 850 AGL). Terrible scenario to be in.

    The CAPS training syllabus doesn’t seem to say much about deployment needs on a landing approach like it emphasizes for takeoff or for a midair collision scenarios at lower altitudes in a congested environment. It mentions 500’ or 600’ (G5) minimum deployment altitudes with immediately deployment between that floor and 2000’. Some others source claims it takes 8 seconds and 500-600’ to fully deploy.

    In the real world do pilots say to themselves on final approach, “CAPS still available until 500/600” and mentally prepare for it? The pilot (or pilots if the Cirrus employee was observing or mentoring) must have had only a few seconds to recognize an issue and deploy (which they did) and their comms with ATC were normal. It appears ATC didn’t even know something happened and were told by another airplane in the pattern they had lost sight of the Cirrus in the trees when ATC wasn’t getting a response from him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  35. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    It absolutely clipped a tree, but if you look at the address on Google Earth, they were meters from a cleared ROW that would make do as a turf runway. So control was lost, apparently.
     
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Feels less like a crash, and more like a 'wow that was close' - at least if I put myself in the shoes of someone with a dead engine hoping to glide to a runway. You're absolutely right, a big field, etc., might be a better option vs riding that Vg wave and praying to make it. But, if you do make it to the runway you can just get out.. and the plane is probably going to be okay
     
  37. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    This might be training / pilot dependent but at least when I was flying and doing my CSIP check out; yes. However the exercise of "what would you do" was more conversational and basically boiled down to "try not to die". If you're coming in steep (the flaps work great to slow you down) you could always try raising the flaps a notch or two to reduce drag and extend that glide. Otherwise if you can't make the runway and you're below caps in a congested-no-place-to-land area basically don't stall it and try to hit the ground with as little energy as possible. It would really suck.

    Thread drift / I'd rather have a second engine every day of the week. At least the twins I mostly fly now are fairly benign when flown SE

    The chute certainly is not a get out of jail free card.
     
  38. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I guess I’ll just go ahead and say it. I had to make this very choice last Sunday afternoon.

    It’s crazy how a runway in sight is still a temptation with decent fields around you…

    Had an engine seize with a client and we did end up taking the field, but not before making an effort to reach a runway. We were about 3 miles short where we ended up. Didn’t bend anything, but it could’ve been worse.

    6858DCA7-B06D-4A76-8541-67318BF7221E.jpeg

    I do NOT want to make this thread about me, and RIP to the deceased, but I’m saying that I personally understand that the mindset of making the field with the airplane when you still have partial power, or a sick, but still running engine is a real thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  39. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Absolutely nothing wrong with initially trying to make the runway. Key is recognizing when you can’t and taking the off road option while you still have control of the airplane (which is what you did). Good outcome!
     
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  40. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    45062FE3-C0E3-4153-AEE2-082852D7996E.jpeg
    What struck me though was that another minute and a half of the engine limping and it might have been in a place where the options were a lot less pretty - way more trees - and the temptation to stretch the glide would have been that much stronger. One of my takeaways is that with a very sick engine you might be better off staying over fields or intentionally making a precautionary landing before it gets worse rather than continuing over a less friendly area.
     
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