Circling approach

[saracelica]

Did safety pilot for a fellow club member in a plane that I'm qualified to fly. He came in for the approach. The circling minimum is 1080 (KTDZ) for 32. He got to 1000 and I said "Altitude" he said "You can go below it just not above it." At what point are you suppose to start decending down to land on circling? We weren't even to left base and were 200 feet above the ground! I realize at some point you go below *circling minimums* but when?

 

[EppyGA]

Try this.

http://www.askacfi.com/4110/what-constitutes-the-runway-environmenthinttere-are-12-things.htm

 

[EppyGA]

Probably a better link.

http://www.altairva-fs.com/training/ava_training_ifr_circle.htm

You must not descend below the Minimum Descent Altitude until continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers

 

[saracelica]

Not sure how that answers my question.

 

[John Collins]

Did safety pilot for a fellow club member in a plane that I'm qualified to fly. He came in for the approach. The circling minimum is 1080 (KTDZ) for 32. He got to 1000 and I said "Altitude" he said "You can go below it just not above it." At what point are you suppose to start decending down to land on circling? We weren't even to left base and were 200 feet above the ground! I realize at some point you go below *circling minimums* but when?

FAR 91.175 states:

(c) Operation below DA/ DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DA/DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless--

(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, ...
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and
(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
(d) Landing. No pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when--
(1) For operations conducted under paragraph (l) of this section, the requirements of (l)(4) of this section are not met; or
(2) For all other part 91 operations and parts 121, 125, 129, and 135 operations, the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used.
(e) Missed approach procedures. Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure when either of the following conditions exist:
(1) Whenever operating an aircraft pursuant to paragraph (c) or (l) of this section and the requirements of that paragraph are not met at either of the following times:
(i) When the aircraft is being operated below MDA; or
(ii) Upon arrival at the missed approach point, including a DA/DH where a DA/DH is specified and its use is required, and at any time after that until touchdown.
(2) Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach.

I would not consider descending below the MDA while maneuvering downwind or on base to an altitude below normal altitudes for landing on the intended runway, and on final to an altitude below the VASI/PAPI glidepath particularly in low visibility or at night when unlit obstacles are near impossible to see. There is only 300 feet of obstacle clearance that is assured at the MDA. I personally won't start down until aligned within 30 degrees of final.

 

[EppyGA]

FAR 91.175 states:



I would not consider descending below the MDA while maneuvering downwind or on base to an altitude below normal altitudes for landing on the intended runway, and on final to an altitude below the VASI/PAPI glidepath particularly in low visibility or at night when unlit obstacles are near impossible to see. There is only 300 feet of obstacle clearance that is assured at the MDA. I personally won't start down until aligned within 30 degrees of final.

Now that looks familiar.

 

[gismo]

Did safety pilot for a fellow club member in a plane that I'm qualified to fly. He came in for the approach. The circling minimum is 1080 (KTDZ) for 32. He got to 1000 and I said "Altitude" he said "You can go below it just not above it." At what point are you suppose to start decending down to land on circling? We weren't even to left base and were 200 feet above the ground! I realize at some point you go below *circling minimums* but when?

Assuming this isn't a communication issue, your fellow club member is seriously (and dangerously) confused about circling approaches. The circling minimums are the lowest you can go until you need to go lower to land (and by need I mean physically required to reach the runway, not in the sense that you "need" to duck under a cloud AND you can avoid all obstacles visually. Once you leave the MDA you have NO protection from anything in the way you can't see.

A simple practice is to remain at or above the MDA until you reach a point where you'd normally be lower on a visual approach in CAVU conditions. And in many cases it's better to wait a little more and make a slightly steeper approach than normal, especially if there's no vertical guidance like VASI or PAPI. In low vis a lot of the normal cues WRT altitude are missing and it's easy to be lower than you think you are and making a slightly steeper approach makes it less likely you'll be too low. Just don't get carried away and end up fast and high leading to an overshoot.

 

[saracelica]

We were landing on a 5k runway. That's a lot of runway so overshooting wouldn't be a problem. I wanted to give them a site like you guys did above to prove I was right. I told him he wasn't suppose to go below but he didn't believe me. Just like proving that I'm right sometimes.

 

[azure]

Did safety pilot for a fellow club member in a plane that I'm qualified to fly. He came in for the approach. The circling minimum is 1080 (KTDZ) for 32. He got to 1000 and I said "Altitude" he said "You can go below it just not above it." At what point are you suppose to start decending down to land on circling? We weren't even to left base and were 200 feet above the ground! I realize at some point you go below *circling minimums* but when?

This one is a double facepalm, I think. (where's that Picard/Riker pic?)

Was he instrument rated and trying to maintain currency, or just playing around with something he has no training in? I hope it's the latter and not the former, or I'd wonder how he passed the checkride.

Good job! You were absolutely right, and the PF was dead wrong and, sadly, on his way to becoming a smoking hole.

 

[poadeleted20]

This one is a double facepalm, I think. (where's that Picard/Riker pic?)

This one?

BTW, for normal operations, you can certainly go above it as long as you stay below both the clouds and the missed approach altitude. However, on the IR practical test, you must stay within 100 feet above the circling MDA until you reach that point from which you can descend to the runway. This demonstrates staying below an imaginary low cloud deck.

 

[azure]

This one?

That's the one!

BTW, for normal operations, you can certainly go above it as long as you stay below both the clouds and the missed approach altitude. However, on the IR practical test, you must stay within 100 feet above the circling MDA until you reach that point from which you can descend to the runway. This demonstrates staying below an imaginary low cloud deck.

Yes, but according to the OP, the PF wasn't trying to stay "just above" the circling MDA, he was going below it thinking it was a maximum altitude, which would probably make no sense even to a non-pilot.

Of course, the other possibility is that he was trying to cover up his sloppy flying with a line of BS, knowing that Saracelica isn't yet instrument rated.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, but according to the OP, the PF wasn't trying to stay "just above" the circling MDA, he was going below it thinking it was a maximum altitude, which would probably make no sense even to a non-pilot.

Understood. I was only pointing out that while the MDA is the lower limit, there is also an invisible upper limit for practical tests. Personally, I don't like that part, because it forces the applicant to be looking more inside at the altimeter at the same time s/he should be focusing more attention outside on the runway and any potential obstructions.

 

[alfadog]

If you have the runway or environs in sight at or above the circling minimum, is there a problem with descending lower as you maneuver to land provided you maintain visual contact and stay within the circling radius? Perhaps that is what was going on there?

That said, he should not have the hood on below the circling minimum as that simulates a violation and he should have gone missed already. Correct? If I were safety pilot, I would take the airplane at that point and ask him to remove the hood.

 

[John Collins]

If you have the runway or environs in sight at or above the circling minimum, is there a problem with descending lower as you maneuver to land provided you maintain visual contact and stay within the circling radius? Perhaps that is what was going on there?

That said, he should not have the hood on below the circling minimum as that simulates a violation and he should have gone missed already. Correct? If I were safety pilot, I would take the airplane at that point and ask him to remove the hood.

It all depends. If descent is at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers in the circle to descend to the runway, then it is permitted. Although there are norms than can be found, they are based on the specific situation and facts. I would not consider using a descent rate that was un-stabilized (above 1000 FPM) or a bank angle that exceeded 30 degrees in turns, or anything but winds level when on final below 300 AGL to be normal. I consider 400 to 500 feet normal above the terrain normal on a base leg and above 500 feet on a downwind leg. So for me, descending on a downwind leg at a MDH of 300 feet is not normal and I would remain at or above the MDA until at least on base, more likely on final.

 

[saracelica]

He is IR, and he removed the foggles when he got to the DH and then circled and descended down. I learned from my mistake. I won't be flying with him again. This is the second rated pilot I've flown with and they've done stuff that just scares me. <shudder>

 

[azure]

Good decision! Just a nit: as you probably know, a circling minimum is an MDA not a DH.

 

[alfadog]

He is IR, and he removed the foggles when he got to the DH and then circled and descended down. I learned from my mistake. I won't be flying with him again. This is the second rated pilot I've flown with and they've done stuff that just scares me. <shudder>

It is important that you be comfortable. If he has removed his Foggles then it boils down to whether you are comfortable flying with him; it is not an IR issue. If you are not then you made the right call - don't fly with him.

Under the hood is a different story. I tell my safety pilot(s) that anytime they feel uncomfortable with what is going on then just say "my airplane" and I will instantly give it to them and we can talk it out after. There is a reason that the safety pilot has to be qualified to fly the airplane.

 

[Jaybird180]

He is IR, and he removed the foggles when he got to the DH and then circled and descended down. I learned from my mistake. I won't be flying with him again. This is the second rated pilot I've flown with and they've done stuff that just scares me. <shudder>

He was visual after taking off the foggles, help me understand what was the source of concern?

This thread has revealed a misunderstanding I have of the difference between a circling approach (and what it looks like) and a contact approach (and what it looks like). Not intending to 7500 the thread, but can someone differentiate it for me?

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have the runway or environs in sight at or above the circling minimum, is there a problem with descending lower as you maneuver to land provided you maintain visual contact and stay within the circling radius? Perhaps that is what was going on there?

The problem is twofold. From a regulatory standpoint, as John said, you are not permitted to leave MDA until a normal descent rate would take you to the runway. From a safety standpoint, when you leave MDA, you no longer have assurance of obstruction clearance below MDA, so you need to be sure you have everything in sight and have no chance of going back in the clouds.

My own personal technique is to imagine the VFR traffic pattern, and the vertical path I'd follow in it. When I intercept that path from below in my circling maneuver at MDA, I follow that VFR pattern path to the runway.

BTW, you cannot start the circling maneuver with the hood still on since you would not have the runway environment in sight and would still be following the approach to the MAP at which point you'd start the missed. No circling without visual contact!

 

[EdFred]

What is legally "normal"? Has the FAA said that anything between 400fpm and 1000fpm is a "normal" descent? What If I'm 50fpm outside the parameters?

What's normal for one plane, may not be normal for another. I think Ron's method of a VFR intercept path is probably a good baseline. But what if my normal VFR approach is stay high, slip it in hard until 20', with descent rates well over 1000fpm, and then touchdown ?

The problem is what's normal and safe for one person, may not be for another. Perhaps that's what we have in the scenario by the OP.

 

[poadeleted20]

What is legally "normal"? Has the FAA said that anything between 400fpm and 1000fpm is a "normal" descent? What If I'm 50fpm outside the parameters?

What's normal for one plane, may not be normal for another. I think Ron's method of a VFR intercept path is probably a good baseline. But what if my normal VFR approach is stay high, slip it in hard until 20', with descent rates well over 1000fpm, and then touchdown ?

The problem is what's normal and safe for one person, may not be for another. Perhaps that's what we have in the scenario by the OP.

When you have done a lot of circling approaches in real weather, as anyone with a CFI-IA should have done, you learn that staying high and slipping hard has a lot of drawbacks in low vis conditions. It becomes very easy to get somewhat disoriented when you don't have a good horizon reference, and by staying high, you are increasing the chance of inadvertently re-encountering the cloud out of which you just descended. In those conditions, the smoother and more stable the descent from MDA, the better. Also, by limiting the descent rate, you significantly improve your chances of a safe balked landing/missed approach if some yoyo enters the runway on which you were about to land.

But at the end of the day, it's all about good judgment with consideration for all factors, including the weather, terrain, runway, and aircraft involved. I guess my advice in such a case would be don't do anything which might cause the DPE's fingers to tighten on the armrest.

 

[alfadog]

He was visual after taking off the foggles, help me understand what was the source of concern?

This thread has revealed a misunderstanding I have of the difference between a circling approach (and what it looks like) and a contact approach (and what it looks like). Not intending to 7500 the thread, but can someone differentiate it for me?

I was thinking she was uncomfortable with the way he was manuevering at 400' AGL. Again, that is her call (what she is comfortable with).

 

[Velocity173]

He was visual after taking off the foggles, help me understand what was the source of concern?

This thread has revealed a misunderstanding I have of the difference between a circling approach (and what it looks like) and a contact approach (and what it looks like). Not intending to 7500 the thread, but can someone differentiate it for me?

Just look up the definition of contact approach in the AIM and you'll see they're two different things. Contact is similar to a visual only it requires only 1 mile viz and has nothing to do with airport in sight. It's for a pilot who's familiar with the area and isn't uncomfortable in flying in low viz while using landmarks to find the airport. Not many people do them since if the viz is that low to begin with you might as well do the IAP.

Circling is nothing more than leveling off at the circling MDA at the bottom of an IAP and circling to another runway. Generally used when an IAP goes to a runway that isn't aligned with the wind. Of course you need to maintain sight of the runway at all times or go missed. At a controlled airport you'll get specific circling instructions from the tower and non-towered you just circle on your own.

One important thing to note is unless the pilot cancels they are IFR throughout the procedure. This can create a seperation nightmare for ATC.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just look up the definition of contact approach in the AIM and you'll see they're two different things. Contact is similar to a visual only it requires only 1 mile viz and has nothing to do with airport in sight. It's for a pilot who's familiar with the area and isn't uncomfortable in flying in low viz while using landmarks to find the airport. Not many people do them since if the viz is that low to begin with you might as well do the IAP.

Circling is nothing more than leveling off at the circling MDA at the bottom of an IAP and circling to another runway. Generally used when an IAP goes to a runway that isn't aligned with the wind. Of course you need to maintain sight of the runway at all times or go missed. At a controlled airport you'll get specific circling instructions from the tower and non-towered you just circle on your own.

There is one other huge difference -- with a circling approach, you have a published missed approach option which is clear of obstructions and other aircraft, but on a contact approach, you don't. If on a contact approach you stumble into a cloud or otherwise can't make it in, your only option to get back up is to exercise your 91.3(b) emergency authority and hope you can get to the MEA and get in touch with ATC for a new clearance without hitting anything (obstruction or other aircraft).

 

[Velocity173]

There is one other huge difference -- with a circling approach, you have a published missed approach option which is clear of obstructions and other aircraft, but on a contact approach, you don't. If on a contact approach you stumble into a cloud or otherwise can't make it in, your only option to get back up is to exercise your 91.3(b) emergency authority and hope you can get to the MEA and get in touch with ATC for a new clearance without hitting anything (obstruction or other aircraft).

Yep, good point. Also, just so I don't get jumped on for the not having airport in sight for a contact. Technically a visual doesn't require that as well. See the traffic, follow the traffic, cleared VA.

 

[Shepherd]

He is IR, and he removed the foggles when he got to the DH and then circled and descended down. I learned from my mistake. I won't be flying with him again. This is the second rated pilot I've flown with and they've done stuff that just scares me. <shudder>

Only 2??
You lead a VERY sheltered life.

I have read through those regs a number of times and I often wonder if The people who write them have ever actually flown in a real airplane, into a real airport.
I flew into 2 (class "D") airports this week where you can't actually see the runway from the pattern altitude for much of the pattern and one where you can't see the runway at all until you side slip past the back side of the mountain after descending to 75 feet AGL on final. (pattern is 1700 msl on all three)

 

[poadeleted20]

Yep, good point. Also, just so I don't get jumped on for the not having airport in sight for a contact. Technically a visual doesn't require that as well. See the traffic, follow the traffic, cleared VA.

Technically, you are correct. But I wouldn't do it without the airport in sight, too. Trust, but verify, and all that. YMMV.

 

[W. Stewart]

I flew into 2 (class "D") airports this week where you can't actually see the runway from the pattern altitude for much of the pattern and one where you can't see the runway at all until you side slip past the back side of the mountain after descending to 75 feet AGL on final. (pattern is 1700 msl on all three)

Which airports are you speaking about? I cannot picture ANY situation in which one must be at 75 AGL to see a runway on final (unless the runway were under some sort of canopy), nor would I land there.

Wells

 

[Shepherd]

Which airports are you speaking about? I cannot picture ANY situation in which one must be at 75 AGL to see a runway on final (unless the runway were under some sort of canopy), nor would I land there.

Wells

ACCKKK! Re-reading my original note, I realize I was very unclear. The third airport is a grass strip near Danbury. Sorry for my lack of clarity.
Danbury is one of the class "D" airports with limited sight of the runway.

Candlelight Farms, CT (11N). The view of the runway is blocked by hills. You fly your downwind leg to the right of the hills, until you turn final 1/4 mile off to the right of runway 35. As you slip to the left during descent to get past the mountain, the runway comes into view. By this time you are pretty low.
It's a great place to practice short and soft field landings and take-offs.
From the other direction you are forced to fly a short field approach because of the trees.
When you take off to the south, as soon as you leave the ground you have to start a left turn, unless you want to try to punch a hole in the mountain. I'll try to take some pictures on Tuesday. I was thinking of going in there again, just for the rush.

Here's a link. You can see the strip, down in the bottom of the valley.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.569166667,-73.462083333&t=h&z=16

 

[saracelica]

Only 2??
You lead a VERY sheltered life.

Maybe I am sheltered...I'm okay with that.