Choosing Alternate

[jdwatson]

My recent trip from KRDU to KPOU got me to thinking about Alternates. I filed KSWF (Stewart International), multiple ILSes, long runways, ARFF. However, KSWF is very close to KPOU so they might share the same weather.

So, how do y'all choose your alternates ?

I understand the 1-2-3 rule. The weather 1 hour before/after your ETA at your destination airport is not at least 2000' and 3sm visibility, an alternate is required. What do you do if the destination doesn't report weather ? What do you use to determine the 1-2-3 rule ? Sure, you filed alternate probably won't be where you divert to. I'd like to hear how the veterans are doing planning.

Before launching IMC, I make notes on where VFR weather is (or will be) at my ETA. Depending on the length of the trip I like to print out the weather map showing the METARs for the region.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It has to be somewhere the principles would be happy to find themselves.

If you can find one close to the final destination with rent cars, you are in good shape.

Typically I try to choose one that is short of my destination rather than past it.... you usually know the wx is not suitable before you get close and why go beyond it only to backtrack later.

 

[Ryan Ferguson]

Dave, I love that avatar of yours.

 

[bbchien]

Dave, I love that avatar of yours.

...and usually with a monitored ILS and a weather reporting system.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

If you go to the same places all the time it gets easier because there are often the same weather patterns repeated again and again. Going to 'new' places gets more challenging! ("ok if we chose this alt, what are we looking at, Podunk airport with the sheriff giving rides to DQ, or is it "big city" with all the amenitie$?")

The CriCri is what I threaten to start flying if the regulations and costs get much further out of control. I will scream around the airport doing aerobatics in my "model plane".
It has some neat numbers and other appeals to it.
http://www.flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-videos-movies.php

 

[wsuffa]

Must have an ILS. Must have fuel, services (hotel, rental car, etc). How far depends on the weather & my fuel capacity.

I'll often file the nearest "legal" alternative, but I will monitor the weather en-route. It really is a different ballgame now with WxWorx & a fuel totalizer.

Example: The time I did New Orleans last winter, I stopped in Galveston for fuel, and I carried enough to get me back to Houston. I knew the weather was low, but was forecast to get better (I knew along the gulf coast that that's rare). Hobby was my alternate. I shot the ILS to mins at Lakefront, and landed. Hobby was "legal", but there were options along the way.

 

[gismo]

So, how do y'all choose your alternates ?

I pretty much ignore any convenience issues when choosing and go for something that I can consider an ace in the hole. There's nothing that says you must divert to your filed alternate if you can't land at the planned destination. It's there for one reason and that so you include enough fuel to get somewhere you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to land. Given that, here's what I look for:

Wx forecast to be well above minimums for at least a few hours after I'd get there (I'm more likely to be late than early), or...

Multiple ILS's into long/wide runways and 24 hour wx reporting. If you arrive at the alternate with 45 minutes of fuel (or less) you want to get in on the first try even if that means busting minumums. A big city airport will have the best approach and runway lights plus a large margin for error on the touchdown.

Another consideration is to keep yourself updated on the wx at your filed alternate as well as the planned destination and any other airports you might divert to if the wx at your dest is iffy.

Typically I'll file one alternate and have a couple other pre-considered choices a bit closer to my destination that I would rather divert to if (and only if) they show signs of staying above minimums. It probably helps to pick the filed alternate and pre-considered closer alternates that are in the same direction from the dest.

 

[gismo]

The CriCri is what I threaten to start flying if the regulations and costs get much further out of control. I will scream around the airport doing aerobatics in my "model plane".

You're gonna need a multi rating, but I think you can skip the high performance endorsement.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

So, how do y'all choose your alternates ?

I have two processes running in parallel. One is finding an FAA legal airport identifier to plop into the box, if required. In your example case, if SWF met the FAA alternate criteria it would probably drop into the box. The other is to figure out where I'm going under any conceivable circumstances. The former is simple compliance with the rules, the later is more complicated. For the later I want not only an IFR landing site (i.e. the monitored ILS others wrote about), but also a VFR landing site. I want both of those within available fuel distance with 1 hour of fuel in the tanks upon landing. Logic here being that I need fuel to find a second out to be used when someone lands gear up at my first out just as I reach the FAF. Don't laugh, it happened--corked the airport for over an hour.

I understand the 1-2-3 rule. The weather 1 hour before/after your ETA at your destination airport is not at least 2000' and 3sm visibility, an alternate is required. What do you do if the destination doesn't report weather ? What do you use to determine the 1-2-3 rule ?

Area forecast.

Before launching IMC, I make notes on where VFR weather is (or will be) at my ETA.

I take it one step further. I want to know where VFR weather will be reachable from any point along the flight plan route with fuel remaining from that point and that VFR weather will exist at the time I arrive after the divert from that point.

 

[BobS]

I take it one step further. I want to know where VFR weather will be reachable from any point along the flight plan route with fuel remaining from that point and that VFR weather will exist at the time I arrive after the divert from that point.

Ed: Are you saying that you won't fly launch IFR if there is no VFR location after flying missed at your primary desitination within your fuel range? I can understand planning an IFR alternate with better weather (better than 1,2,3) but does it have to be VFR? Even a VFR airport might still require a descent through a layer.

 

[jdwatson]

Thanks everyone... I'm working on another trip to KPOU. Hopefully sometime this fall, but this time I'm going to try to get the "east side" routing. A second trip is forming to KMLB, not sure of the dates, my college buddy lives on Satellite Beach. After that, we've got some good friends in Austin, TX (Leander) that we'd love to visit. Those are three different weather systems.

I'm envious of those who can get WX by avionics. How convenient it must be to pull up the METARs for airports while airborne ! I bet diverting is easier with that kind of information at your finger tips.

I like the idea of having an alternate before the destination. For fuel planning you'd still have to have enough to go to your destination and THEN to your Alternate plus 45 minutes even though that's probably not how you would really fly it, right ?

 

[wsuffa]

I like the idea of having an alternate before the destination. For fuel planning you'd still have to have enough to go to your destination and THEN to your Alternate plus 45 minutes even though that's probably not how you would really fly it, right ?

The filed alternate? Yes.

The secondary alternates? Usually, but might cut the corner on this depending on the circumstances (e.g. if Lunken were the 'secondary' alternate, I might cut a little closer because I know CVG is nearby with multiple ILS approaches... and because CVG tends to stay above mins much longer when LUK goes down). What I really do is to identify all the potential alternates along the way, regardless of onboard fuel status. So the home port might still be an alternate if I can identify early enough that the destination is going down, even if the home port doesn't meet destination+alternate+45.

 

[jdwatson]

There seems to be an art to the alternate game. Choosing wisely in terms of fuel is the difficult part. Has anyone had much luck in probing AFSS for alternates ?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

There seems to be an art to the alternate game. Choosing wisely in terms of fuel is the difficult part. Has anyone had much luck in probing AFSS for alternates ?

Sure, especially when unfamiliar with the area. "Hey, I need a legal alternate near XYZ. Where's the nearest airport that would qualify?"

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Ed: Are you saying that you won't fly launch IFR if there is no VFR location after flying missed at your primary desitination within your fuel range? I can understand planning an IFR alternate with better weather (better than 1,2,3) but does it have to be VFR? Even a VFR airport might still require a descent through a layer.

I plan for total electrical failures. I need an airport with seriously good VFR weather within fuel distance or I seriously consider why I'm making this flight. Mind you, a Mooney M20J has better than 6 hours fuel at 150 kts, so that weather can be a long ways away, but I would strongly prefer that it exists within striking distance. One time launching out of Jekyl Island, GA, the planned destination was in MS, the planned barely legal alternate was nearby, and the VFR "out" was in Texas.

 

[Eamon]

Don't forget to Look at the big picture. If you are going to the NE along the shore & fog is expected. Don't pick another costal airport.

Look for an ALT on the other side of a front, or mountain, or in another valley.

 

[gismo]

I take it one step further. I want to know where VFR weather will be reachable from any point along the flight plan route with fuel remaining from that point and that VFR weather will exist at the time I arrive after the divert from that point.

I definitely don't take it that far. I do want a couple bolt holes with something better than 800/1, but as to VMC, I want to know where it is if any exists but I figure that even if I lose all electrics in the plane (dual alternators makes this less likely but nowhere near impossible) I can fake an approach with my portable GPS and handheld navcom.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I can fake an approach with my portable GPS ...

Have you (or anyone) tried this? I have been meaning to give it a try as well with a safety pilot. I bet it would not be too hard, or dangerous.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

The problem isn't finding the runway, it's meeting the TERPS clearance requirements. How do you know you're in the safe zone?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Dave,
The problem isn't finding the runway, it's meeting the TERPS clearance requirements. How do you know you're in the safe zone?

Heck, Bill - mine will tell me when I have one wheel off the centerline of the taxiway (exagg)!
(I agree it has serious limitations and would be an emerg procedure when other options have disappeared)

 

[gismo]

Dave,

The problem isn't finding the runway, it's meeting the TERPS clearance requirements. How do you know you're in the safe zone?

Oh, I wasn't going to make up the approach, I'd use a published approach and fly it with the portable. It's not legal but we're talking serious emergency so who cares? The real risk is that my portable might be mis-tracking and I wouldn't have any way to know and I'll take my chances with that in an emergency.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Oh, I wasn't going to make up the approach, I'd use a published approach and fly it with the portable. It's not legal but we're talking serious emergency so who cares? The real risk is that my portable might be mis-tracking and I wouldn't have any way to know and I'll take my chances with that in an emergency.

Given an (a) go to VFR or (b) trust a handheld GPS to get me down alive in IMC I would opt for (a), assuming all other things being equal and no pressing need to get down right now. IOW, I will comply with as many rules as practicable within the known or foreseeable extent of the problem.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Have you (or anyone) tried this? I have been meaning to give it a try as well with a safety pilot. I bet it would not be too hard, or dangerous.

I have a 10-year-old Apollo Precedus and have shot GPS approaches with it and used the extended runway centerline feature to shoot quasi-localizer approaches. All while VFR, of course. To up the ante, I've also used the handheld GPS and my PC Flightsystems electronic AI to shoot approaches under the hood (VFR with a safety pilot) because in my Citabria, that's all I have. Works surprisingly well. But of course, there's no monitoring, no backup and no guarantees. But then, if I'm in that predicament in a Citabria in the first place I pretty much deserve whatever I'm about to get.

 

[jdwatson]

My handheld is part of my security blanket. It's one of the reasons I go thru the expense of keeping both the obstacle and the aviation databases up to date. When in trouble, I'm going to use the 96C to get me to better weather. If I'm SOL with better weather, then 96C is going to be my tool. Practice makes perfect in less than perfect situation.

What's Mr. Levy's quote... We sweat in training so we bleed less in combat. (it's close to that)

 

[gismo]

Given an (a) go to VFR or (b) trust a handheld GPS to get me down alive in IMC I would opt for (a), assuming all other things being equal and no pressing need to get down right now. IOW, I will comply with as many rules as practicable within the known or foreseeable extent of the problem.

I'm with you there, if there's reachable VMC that's where I'd head after a total electrical failure athough if you cannot communicate, you'd want to be pretty darn sure the wx wouldn't deteriorate while you were enroute. The only point where we part company here is that I'm quite willing to make an IFR trip (with adequate alternates) when part or all of the trip puts me out of reach of any VMC airports.