Chicago Class B changes?

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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gprellwitz said:
I had a chance to show Scott and Zuk the proposed O'Hare Class Bravo that they're shooting for this December.
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Grant,

Can you elaborate? I wasn't aware they were going to change anything. What are the reasons for the change(s), and what's changing?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Grant,

Can you elaborate? I wasn't aware they were going to change anything. What are the reasons for the change(s), and what's changing?
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I'm going to put together a presentation for the board, but basically it's in preparation for ORD becoming an E/W airport. They're proposing adding airspace with a floor of 5000' to the East and West extending to the edge of the 30nm mode-C veil to better accommodate the new departures. (ORD takes planes in on the corners and spews them out in the cardinal directions.) There's also some minor reconfiguration around PWK (Chicago Executive, née Palwaukee) that should actually help them. The plan hasn't been finalized yet. I'll post additional details in this thread once I get a chance to put them down.
 
Okay, they've released the proposed airspace diagram and are holding meetings on it in September.
http://www.palwaukee.org/docs/Class_B_redesign.pdf
Tue 9/23/08 1400 - 1900 Signature @ KPWK
Wed 9/24/08 1000 - 1400 DuPage Flight Center at KDPA
Thu 9/25/08 1400 - 1900 Signature @ KPWK
 

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smigaldi said:
Ah good I was about to scan the letter they sent.
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So was I, but I figured Google might be good to me, and it was. I prefer it in color, too! They extended it out to the east (no big deal) and the west (a little more problematic) and tinkered a bit around KPWK. I don't see where they've lowered any existing floors, except maybe in that PWK tinkering. I do wish they'd either use recognizable landmarks or publish the radials used for the wedges.
 
gprellwitz said:
So was I, but I figured Google might be good to me, and it was. I prefer it in color, too! They extended it out to the east (no big deal)
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No that is a little bit of a big deal. you will now have to stay low further out to sea. I like to climb and get up high. this will cause us to have even more problems when coming in from the east.


gprellwitz said:
and the west (a little more problematic)
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They are basically keeping everyone below 4k out that way already.
 
smigaldi said:
gprellwitz said:
They extended it out to the east (no big deal)
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No that is a little bit of a big deal. you will now have to stay low further out to sea. I like to climb and get up high. this will cause us to have even more problems when coming in from the east.
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Even at the 25NM from ORD they had it before, I would have been out of gliding range to shore and wouldn't have felt comfortable in a SE. You had to be 15NM offshore before you could go above 3600', or about 3000' AGL. Now they're proposing that you have to be 20NM out. I don't like either of those.
smigaldi said:
gprellwitz said:
and the west (a little more problematic)
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They are basically keeping everyone below 4k out that way already.
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But that's only if you're IFR or talking to them. Now it'll apply to the VFR not receiving flight following.
 
bbchien said:
Now you'll have to come in VFR at 12-thousand. Sigh.
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10,500 or 11,500 might be better VFR altitudes:D, but they probably won't be happy with you. Then again, when ARE they happy with GA?
 
bruce doesnt the bravo already go up to 10? and even then, chi approach controls up to 15 so you'd have to be at 16 to cross VFR, or IFR for that matter, as i experienced earlier this year. Direct to KELSI, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars!
 
At least you can fly over the top of Chicago Class B in a Skyhawk. Good luck with that over Atlanta.
 
gprellwitz said:
10,500 or 11,500 might be better VFR altitudes:D, but they probably won't be happy with you. Then again, when ARE they happy with GA?
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I crossed the Lake Michigan the other day at 10,500 and came down from up north. MKW was not accepting any VFRs due to OSH. I gotta tell you I was very much thinking of staying up there and flying over the top of the bravo and KORD I would have been legal and within my rights. Instead I decided to descend while circling from 10500MSL just to the west and north of 10C well outside fo the bravo. I would have come down sooner but it was so comfortable temperature wise up there that I did not want to get into the 90 degree air
 
mikea said:
Exactly how does Atlanta stop you if you choose not to talk to them?
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As long as you remain clear of Class B, there's no need to talk with them. If you do not violate by entering below the ceiling of the Class B, you're no different than passing by the surface area under the shelf. I did that all the time while flying traffic.

In case you don't know, Atlanta's Class B goes up to 12,500 where the standard is 10,000. Some are lower such as New Orleans and New York; both are at 7,000.
 
tonycondon said:
bruce doesnt the bravo already go up to 10? and even then, chi approach controls up to 15 so you'd have to be at 16 to cross VFR, or IFR for that matter, as i experienced earlier this year. Direct to KELSI, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars!
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Why would you have to be a 16 to cross VFR? A VFR aircraft doesn't even have to talk to ATC above Class B airspace.
 
That's one heck of a space grab. Nothing like the LAX bravo change we had.
Are they at least going to add some transition routes or a SFRA? I couldn't find it in the pdf.
 
Pi1otguy said:
That's one heck of a space grab. Nothing like the LAX bravo change we had.
Are they at least going to add some transition routes or a SFRA? I couldn't find it in the pdf.
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Hah! This is Chicago we're talking about. Best you can hope for is that they actually add a middle finger to the inverted wedding cake.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hah! This is Chicago we're talking about. Best you can hope for is that they actually add a middle finger to the inverted wedding cake.
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Go to the public input meeting and request a transition. At least they could put in something like "xxx transition available when ILS rwy xx is not in use"?

Is the C-space easier to get through?
 
Pi1otguy said:
Go to the public input meeting and request a transition. At least they could put in something like "xxx transition available when ILS rwy xx is not in use"?

Is the C-space easier to get through?
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They'll literally laugh at us when we request a transition.

And yes, Midway's C is easier. They'll talk to you and have been known to clear you through.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Go to the public input meeting and request a transition. At least they could put in something like "xxx transition available when ILS rwy xx is not in use"?

Is the C-space easier to get through?
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Like they're really going to listen to us. The middle finger is more like what you'll get from ORD. As for transition routes, expect them to be outside the Class B - AOPA will tout them as an "accomplishment" for pilots, even if they duplicate the current outside-the-B routing (they did that with the GPS routes around CVG.... no improvement, just a useless AOPA PR bonanza.)
 
The big shift to the West will impact DuPage as it effectively pushes west the training area used by the flight schools. If you were IFR into DuPage they routinely took you that low anyway. It's going to jam a lot of VFR traffic into the 3,000 and lower height as if you're flying west the first height you can use is 4,500. You wouldn't mind so much if the controllers were the least bit friendly towards GA but at the moment they are moving the "Berlin Wall" to gain more airspace.

I wonder if we could get a VFR corridor to DPA?
 
gprellwitz said:
They'll literally laugh at us when we request a transition.

And yes, Midway's C is easier. They'll talk to you and have been known to clear you through.
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Guess I'm out of suggestions. I guess SoCal must be vastly different. I'm just surprised, cause I thought the FAA was into controlling less airspace. The LAX change was touted as "it's not xx cubic miles smaller then before and we've aligned the boundaries with visual landmarks or radials." While they did grab some space to the east, it was just enough to include their STAR & they raised some floors.

An odd ball idea: Get one of the congress critters or other elected official to request a higher floor for noise abatement. Supposedly that encouraged a raising of our floor from 3k(?) to 5k.
 
gprellwitz said:
And yes, Midway's C is easier. They'll talk to you and have been known to clear you through.
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My (now lapsing) training was mainly out of MDW. I never had anything other than great experiences with any of the controllers there, all the way up and down (Ground, Tower, and Radar when applicable).
 
So, they will give us a N-S corridor from IKK to OBK right? :rofl:
 
ReverendSlappy said:
My (now lapsing) training was mainly out of MDW. I never had anything other than great experiences with any of the controllers there, all the way up and down (Ground, Tower, and Radar when applicable).
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I just landed there on Saturday. Busy, but good controllers. On the way in they were going to put me on 4L (the shorter one) but ended up letting me do a short approach to 4R to save me taxi time. On the way out, departed 4L with a 160 assigned heading "as soon as practicable" but I guess I made the turnout earlier than they expected to I got "on course" (120) right away.

They even made an AirTran and a Southwest wait for me. :D
 
KennyFlys said:
At least you can fly over the top of Chicago Class B in a Skyhawk. Good luck with that over Atlanta.
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mikea said:
Exactly how does Atlanta stop you if you choose not to talk to them?
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KennyFlys said:
As long as you remain clear of Class B, there's no need to talk with them. If you do not violate by entering below the ceiling of the Class B, you're no different than passing by the surface area under the shelf. I did that all the time while flying traffic.

In case you don't know, Atlanta's Class B goes up to 12,500 where the standard is 10,000. Some are lower such as New Orleans and New York; both are at 7,000.
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Exactly my point. You said "Good luck with that over Atlanta" and I was going for that ATC can't stop you any more than any other Bravo ATC can.

I guess you were saying that it's tough to go 12,500+ "..in a Skyhawk" which means we're agreeing violently on different aspects of the problem. ;)

I've never gone over ORD's mainly because I would spend so much time and fuel getting out from under and climbing that I'm better off just ducking under and being on my way.

I've gone over the Bravos at CLE (8500) and STL (9500), both while getting VFR flight following. Cleveland just gave me a vector to go a bit north of Hopkins.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
I just landed there on Saturday. Busy, but good controllers. On the way in they were going to put me on 4L (the shorter one) but ended up letting me do a short approach to 4R to save me taxi time. On the way out, departed 4L with a 160 assigned heading "as soon as practicable" but I guess I made the turnout earlier than they expected to I got "on course" (120) right away.

They even made an AirTran and a Southwest wait for me. :D
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See!?! You're one of those evil private pilots clogging up the airports for all the airlines! ;) :D

Hearing about that sure makes me miss it... It's now been over a year since my last flight -- and I was getting so close to finishing up my Private. Fortunately/unfortunately a once-in-a-lifetime kind of chance to get in on a sailboat in just exactly the kind of situation I wanted dropped in my lap, so my "hobby money" kind of dried up in a hurry. After the first of the year, though, I'm planning to get a coupla SWA 737's to wait for me! :yes:
 
Well, they're going to have public meetings about the ORD Class B changes in February at Romeoville and Du Page. In general, I don't see that they're taking too much from us, but they're certainly not giving us anything.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/E8-30152.htm said:
[Federal Register: December 19, 2008 (Volume 73, Number 245)]
[Notices]
[Page 77867]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr19de08-190]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

Federal Aviation Administration


Proposed Modification of the Chicago, IL, Class B Airspace Area;
Public Meetings

AGENCY: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.

ACTION: Notice of meetings.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This notice announces two fact-finding informal airspace
meetings, in addition to three meetings held previously (73 FR 44311),
to solicit information from airspace users and others concerning a
proposal to revise the Class B airspace area at Chicago, IL. The
purpose of these meetings is to ensure all interested parties were
provided an opportunity to present views, recommendations, and comments
on the proposal. All comments received during these meetings will be
considered prior to any revision or issuance of a notice of proposed
rulemaking.
Times and Dates: The informal airspace meetings will be held on
Monday, February 23, 2009, at 1 p.m., and Thursday, February 26, 2009,
at 5 p.m. Comments must be received on or before March 30, 2009.

ADDRESSES: (1) The meeting on Monday, February 23, 2009, will be held
at Lewis University, Harold E. White Aviation Center, 1 University
Parkway, Romeoville, IL 60446. (2) The meeting on Thursday, February
26, 2009, will be held at DuPage Flight Center, Chicago DuPage Airport,
2700 International Drive, West Chicago, IL 60185.
Comments: Send comments on the proposal to: Don Smith, Manager,
Operations Support Group, Air Traffic Organization Central Service
Center, Federal Aviation Administration, 2601 Meacham Boulevard, Fort
Worth, Texas, 76137, or by fax to (817) 222-5547.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Anne Hulsey, FAA ChicagoTRACON, 1100
Bowes Road, Elgin, IL 60123; Telephone (847) 608-5524.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Meeting Procedures

(a) The meetings will be informal in nature and will be conducted
by one or more representatives of the FAA Central Service Center. A
representative from the FAA will present a briefing on the planned
modification to the Class B airspace at Chicago, IL. Each participant
will be given an opportunity to deliver comments or make a
presentation, although a time limit may be imposed. Only comments
concerning the plan to modify the Class B airspace area at Chicago, IL,
will be accepted.
(b) The meetings will be open to all persons on a space-available
basis. There will be no admission fee or other charge to attend and
participate.
(c) Any person wishing to make a presentation to the FAA panel will
be asked to sign in and estimate the amount of time needed for such
presentation. This will permit the panel to allocate an appropriate
amount of time for each presenter. These meetings will not be adjourned
until everyone on the list has had an opportunity to address the panel.
(d) Position papers or other handout material relating to the
substance of these meetings will be accepted. Participants wishing to
submit handout material should present an original and two copies (3
copies total) to the presiding officer. There should be additional
copies of each handout available for other attendees.
(e) These meetings will not be formally recorded.

Agenda for the Meetings

--Sign-in.
--Presentation of Meeting Procedures.
--FAA explanation of the planned Class B modifications.
--Solicitation of Public Comments.
--Closing Comments.

Authority: 49 U.S.C. 106(g), 40103, 40113, 40120; E.O. 10854, 24
FR 9565, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 389.

Issued in Washington, DC, on December 12, 2008.
Edith V. Parish,
Manager, Airspace and Rules Group.
[FR Doc. E8-30152 Filed 12-18-08; 8:45 am]

BILLING CODE 4910-13-P
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smigaldi said:
No that is a little bit of a big deal. you will now have to stay low further out to sea. I like to climb and get up high. this will cause us to have even more problems when coming in from the east.


They are basically keeping everyone below 4k out that way already.
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It makes for a slim area between the Bravo at 4000 and Gary at 3100. I used to call Gary and climb when free of the 3600 ring. Now it that's trickier.

I guess we just surrender and stay low and talk to them until past Gary.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, they're going to have public meetings about the ORD Class B changes in February at Romeoville and Du Page. In general, I don't see that they're taking too much from us, but they're certainly not giving us anything.
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When you go to the meeting, ask about them creating a VFR corridor for the two weeks before/during/after AirVenture.
Also, specifically if/when there is an Obama Zone along the lakeshore which would require a higher altitude.
 
john smith said:
When you go to the meeting, ask about them creating a VFR corridor for the two weeks before/during/after AirVenture.
Also, specifically if/when there is an Obama Zone along the lakeshore which would require a higher altitude.
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The Obama zone will close the airspace to VFR to 18,000 feet.
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe you will be lucky and he will move to Hawaii... :idea:
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The good news is the kids will be going to school in Washington and they're even moving mom-in-law in to the White House to watch the kids. We can hope that means he won't go home too often.
 
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