Cherokee Six

dogman

dogman

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Mar 12, 2005
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dogman
Went to the Mechanics shop last week end to finish stripping of the 172. While I was there parked on the other side of the hanger was a nice PA32-260. Guess what it was for sale. So I talked to my A\P seems My mech. has been taking care of this bird for a few years He gives me the list, Annual in april and of all the panel updates and the mechanical status which he tells me is one of the cleanest Six's he has ever seen. He also tells me the owner is military and has just been transferred to Germany and has to leave June 6. Needs to sale. So I made and offer got a pre-buy and bought it. Great price. This is one of my dream planes I have just been waiting for the right situation.

I wish I was all ready checked out in it I have to Put on a 3 day Seminar in Denver area this weekend. The perfect bird for hauling all my stuff and family to seminars.

So now I have to learn to fly it, need 10hrs of dual in it. For Ins.

Can you give me any advise flying the Six???
 
Great bird!

Take a CFI to Denver with you and knock out those hours!

David
 
dkneisler said:
Great bird!

Take a CFI to Denver with you and knock out those hours!

David
Click to expand...
The six lands best a tad quicker than 1.3 Vso (wing is very heavily loaded at gross). Or you can land it at 1.3 Vso with about 1500 rpm left on a flat prop. Other than that, it's a dream.

Bruce :)
 
Make sure you and your CFI explore short field landings at max gross. That corner of the flight envelope - way behind the power curve - will be an eye opener, something that you don't want to explore alone.

-Skip
 
Make sure you get a checkout with the airplane at a light weight AND at gross. The handling is very different because the thing hauls so much.

You didn't say what year it is, but if you have one that requires individual selection of the main and aux tanks on each side, rather than a simple left/right/off, develop a fuel tank managment plan that works for you and stick with it.
 
Congratulations on the great find, it is nice to be at the right place at the right time. You have purchased my dream plane and I hope someday I can find a deal like yours. Keep us up to date on how you and it are doing.
 
You'll love it - wider cabin - smoother in turb.
But, do what everyone else said - explore the envelope at MGW. Load her up with sandbags and try soft and short.

I came into a field in our club 6-300 at near max, going a bit slow, caught a burble of wind over some trees at the end of the field, dropped like a stone - horns blaring - nearly soiled myself! :hairraise:

I salvaged it with power (thanks 300hp) and about a second of nose down, but man - I will never get in that position again :no:
EB
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EXTREME Q VAPORIZER BEST TEMP
 
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bubba said:
You'll love it - wider cabin - smoother in turb.
But, do what everyone else said - explore the envelope at MGW. Load her up with sandbags and try soft and short.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, SIMULATED soft and short at first. A max gross takeoff from a soft field on a hot day is a real eye opener, especially with the 260 HP version. Lightly loaded they just leap off the ground, but with a full load expect a much longer ground roll even on pavement.
 
dogman said:
Went to the Mechanics shop last week end to finish stripping of the 172. While I was there parked on the other side of the hanger was a nice PA32-260. Guess what it was for sale. So I talked to my A\P seems My mech. has been taking care of this bird for a few years He gives me the list, Annual in april and of all the panel updates and the mechanical status which he tells me is one of the cleanest Six's he has ever seen. He also tells me the owner is military and has just been transferred to Germany and has to leave June 6. Needs to sale. So I made and offer got a pre-buy and bought it. Great price. This is one of my dream planes I have just been waiting for the right situation.

I wish I was all ready checked out in it I have to Put on a 3 day Seminar in Denver area this weekend. The perfect bird for hauling all my stuff and family to seminars.

So now I have to learn to fly it, need 10hrs of dual in it. For Ins.

Can you give me any advise flying the Six???
Click to expand...

Great deal, great plane, you don't need any advise on flying the Six. It's a straight forward honest airplane with no real bad habits. Keep the CG at the back of the envelope for fuel efficiency. Biggest thing to a 172 flyer transitioning to this plane is the fuel selector. You have 4 tanks and no ALL position. I use outboards first, a 1/4 tank at a time switching back and forth so it doesn't get wing heavy. You'll love your airplane, one of the great family planes. If you've got a CPL, you can put a curtain behind the front seats and a matress in the back and sell "Mile High" rides under pt 91.:rolleyes:
 
All the guys I know here in Tulsa (flying the 300's series) went to Wal-Mart and bought a plastic rubber bin. They put extra oil, odd stuff they needed, and a couple of small sand bags, etc in it. This helped with the CG quit a bit, enough that they enjoyed the difference.

I am blessed to fly it when needed and not own it. However it is not the same. One day I will own a plane. That's my aviation goal.

Brent
 
Thanks for all the advise and will keep you posted.

Heading to Denver early in the morn via highway, not enough time to get the Six checkout. Not enough room in the 172. So I'll be leaving the six in the hanger this time. ERRRR.

Thanks for everything.

Dogman
 
lancefisher said:
Hopefully, SIMULATED soft and short at first. A max gross takeoff from a soft field on a hot day is a real eye opener, especially with the 260 HP version. Lightly loaded they just leap off the ground, but with a full load expect a much longer ground roll even on pavement.
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Of course I meant practice soft and short (on a long runway). :no:
Never occurred to me to load it up for the first time and do a real soft and short....Give me just a little credit Lance.
EB
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Anal ****ing
 
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I love the 6, Lance, and Saratoga. If I ever bought one of these, it would be the 6, preferably the -300, although I would take a -260. One of the freight haulers at MKC operate Lances with the back seats taken out. They load it up and haul their freight, no problem. Excellent plane with great flying characteristics, although I have only flown in one a few times. I just love these planes.
 
bubba said:
Of course I meant practice soft and short (on a long runway). :no:
Never occurred to me to load it up for the first time and do a real soft and short....Give me just a little credit Lance.
EB
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I know that you knew better, and given it's likely everyone else did as well, my comment was a bit redundant.
 
I have 1,000+ hours in various models of the Six starting with owning serial number 2 when it was three years old and cost $15,000. At anything but light weights the 260 needs to climb at full power with the prop back a bit to lower the noise level. Trying to stagger to altitude at 25/25 does not provide enough cooling air or fuel plus it takes longer to climb to cool air. The engine is nothing more than a 180 with 2 more cylinders. Don't sweat over square as the airplane was available equipped with a fixed pitch prop so it was taking off at 18" and 2500 RPM. Having operated out of short fields with nasty crosswinds I found that the required flaps 10 for takeoff led to skittish directional control in gusts so it's better to roll with no flaps. I predetermine rotation speed which varies from about 60 MPH on a cold day lightly loaded to over 90 at gross on a hot day. The book calls for 81 at gross on an ISA day. At rotation with just a little back pressure on the yoke I pop to flaps 25 which effects a quick clean liftoff. Without removing my hand from the lever I bleed back to flaps 10 for initial climb. Prop back to 25-2600 and flaps up when it's safe. The Six taxis tail low at heavy weights and aft CG so I always "put the tail up" upon reaching a speed where it will do it all at once as one does in a taildragger finding that the airplane accelerates better and isn't trying to lift off at too slow a speed. Last, NEVER forget the electric boost pump. The system should as usually will sustain full power with it off -but not always. I made the mistake a couple of times and had the engine quit. Also do not run a tank dry with the aux pump on. If you are going to do that run it out, switch tanks and THEN turn on the pump. It is quite practical to run the tips out. One can visually inspect the contents of the tank for trash and water. Charlie Melot remembering N3202W from 1968.
 
dogman said:
Went to the Mechanics shop last week end to finish stripping of the 172. While I was there parked on the other side of the hanger was a nice PA32-260. Guess what it was for sale. So I talked to my A\P seems My mech. has been taking care of this bird for a few years He gives me the list, Annual in april and of all the panel updates and the mechanical status which he tells me is one of the cleanest Six's he has ever seen. He also tells me the owner is military and has just been transferred to Germany and has to leave June 6. Needs to sale. So I made and offer got a pre-buy and bought it. Great price. This is one of my dream planes I have just been waiting for the right situation.

I wish I was all ready checked out in it I have to Put on a 3 day Seminar in Denver area this weekend. The perfect bird for hauling all my stuff and family to seminars.

So now I have to learn to fly it, need 10hrs of dual in it. For Ins.

Can you give me any advise flying the Six???
Click to expand...

That is also one of the planes I wish to own someday. Enjoy it.
 
dogman said:
Went to the Mechanics shop last week end to finish stripping of the 172. While I was there parked on the other side of the hanger was a nice PA32-260. Guess what it was for sale. So I talked to my A\P seems My mech. has been taking care of this bird for a few years He gives me the list, Annual in april and of all the panel updates and the mechanical status which he tells me is one of the cleanest Six's he has ever seen. He also tells me the owner is military and has just been transferred to Germany and has to leave June 6. Needs to sale. So I made and offer got a pre-buy and bought it. Great price. This is one of my dream planes I have just been waiting for the right situation.

I wish I was all ready checked out in it I have to Put on a 3 day Seminar in Denver area this weekend. The perfect bird for hauling all my stuff and family to seminars.

So now I have to learn to fly it, need 10hrs of dual in it. For Ins.

Can you give me any advise flying the Six???
Click to expand...

ILSs at 110-120 KIAS.

Fly 90 on final and 80 across the fence.

Normal approaches should be flown power-on, killing the last bit of power just as the mains touch down. Also, do practice power-off occasionally because it is quite different.

Watch the nose in the flare--it is long and it will look too high, but if you keep it too low you will land flat or worse.
 
Thanks for all the advise knowledge it is very helpfull to get real experience to get the right start with a new aircraft.

Put on our seminar over the weekend in Denver rapped it up and got rolling at 6:30pm cst and pulled in at 4:30am cst. I will have to the six home in the next week or so. It will save me so much travel time ( well most of the tIme). We are so busy all the time my wife and I are allways happy to get stuck some where because of weather for a day or 2 or 3 ...
 
Henning said:
Great deal, great plane, you don't need any advise on flying the Six. It's a straight forward honest airplane with no real bad habits. Keep the CG at the back of the envelope for fuel efficiency. Biggest thing to a 172 flyer transitioning to this plane is the fuel selector. You have 4 tanks and no ALL position. I use outboards first, a 1/4 tank at a time switching back and forth so it doesn't get wing heavy.
Click to expand...


*Ahem* My 1968 POH says to use the tips last, in other words take the inboard mains down to the last bit before beginnign to drain the tips. My CFI wrote the checklist that way. My A&P called New Piper too see if they really was a mechanical or structural reason for that as the CFI believed. Piper couldn't find one. Another 235 owner on the Piper list said he treated his tip tanks as auxiliary tanks which he only filled for long flights. In the 235 review in Plane and Pilot that owner did the same.

I just finished an experimentation session with my CFI where I ran the tips down to about 5 gallons each to try the technique of treating them they really are auxiliary tanks. The plane was very squirrelly in roll like I had lost the dihedral effect. In the summer thermal chop, I had the wings dipping back and forth all over the place. If I had mere civilian passengers I would have had a mess. Conclusion: I'm keeping the tip tanks full to have the most mass out at the longest arm outboard.

This is a Hershey bar wing Cherokee. The tapered wing may be different, but the Hershey bar is MORE stubborn in roll, not less.

With full fuel I do 30 minutes on each main for two cycles on each then switch to the tips for 15 minutes on each for 2-4 cycles. You should be landing by then because you've been flying up to 4 hours and you'll need to take care of biologics. :) At that, I have never had the plane contain less than 2 hours usable cruise fuel in it (thus my sig).

What you NEVER want to experience is having the tip tanks severely unbalanced. Been there. Almost broke my wrist from the required twisting on the yoke. I got the AeroTrim aileron trim after that and haven't needed it. :rolleyes:
 
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You're absolutely right Mike, on both the order of use AND the importance of keeping the tip tanks balanced. Sounds like we both learned that last lesson the hard way!
 
Have you ever participated in a Young Eagles event? You're going to be a popular guy with your local EAA chapter. I did 41 kids on a Saturday morning last year with my FG Saratoga. Easy to do when you can take 5 at a time.
 
mikea said:
*Ahem* My 1968 POH says to use the tips last, :rolleyes:
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But as you say, that's for a PA-28 235, not a PA-32-260. Honestly, I'm not sure what his POH will recommend, I just gave him the method I use after a few hundred hours in the Cherokee 6s. I like crisper controls, so I get the weight inboard as quick as I can, plus it's a mangement habit I first developed flying 310s where your tip tanks are your mains, and the ONLY tanks your fuel returns feed to, so if you suck inboards first with full mains, you're gonna lose a lot of fuel overboard.
 
James_Dean said:
Have you ever participated in a Young Eagles event? You're going to be a popular guy with your local EAA chapter. I did 41 kids on a Saturday morning last year with my FG Saratoga. Easy to do when you can take 5 at a time.
Click to expand...
I did at Meigs. I could only take 3 kids and the one behind me wouldn't have a lot of leg room, but when we had a kid that looked like Fridge Perry I always told them to let me take him.

The guy in the "Air Force" 150 who has flown more Young Eagles than any in the area - one at a time - wouldn't have gotten far with some of those kids.

One guy showed up with a big biz twin - a 12-14 seater I think. I thought he could out us all to shame but his insurance limited him to 4 passengers. I don't remember what it was. It was in the same league as a Platatus.
 
Henning said:
But as you say, that's for a PA-28 235, not a PA-32-260. Honestly, I'm not sure what his POH will recommend, I just gave him the method I use after a few hundred hours in the Cherokee 6s. I like crisper controls, so I get the weight inboard as quick as I can, plus it's a mangement habit I first developed flying 310s where your tip tanks are your mains, and the ONLY tanks your fuel returns feed to, so if you suck inboards first with full mains, you're gonna lose a lot of fuel overboard.
Click to expand...

Henning, I flew a PA-32-260 for over a year. It's the same as Mike's - mains first, then tips - and watch the imbalance in the tips!
 
My CFI is going over tho get it Tuesday Morning will be able to start my SIX check out at that time. I can't wait! I will keep you informed how it goes.

Dogman
 
Ken Ibold said:
Make sure you get a checkout with the airplane at a light weight AND at gross. The handling is very different because the thing hauls so much.

You didn't say what year it is, but if you have one that requires individual selection of the main and aux tanks on each side, rather than a simple left/right/off, develop a fuel tank managment plan that works for you and stick with it.
Click to expand...

When I flew a Cherokee Six 300, I learned what Ken said! With four tanks, each individually selectable, you need a good fuel strategy, especially on the longer trips. The POH says to fill the tips first, then the mains, and to USE the mains first, then the tips (if I recall correctly).

One good thing to do is always leave some fuel in the RIGHT TIP when flying... why? If the engine dies, you can reach down and flip that fuel selector all the way to the right against the stop, and you'll be on a tank with fuel--very handy in an emergency. Any other spot, you have to make sure you're on the proper indent. If you go to the left, you go to the FUEL OFF position, not good! Being able to reach down and flip it all the way to the right in an emergency is one less thing to think about.

Power off, it drops like a rock. Don't fly really wide patterns down low if you want to make it to the runway if you lose the engine! A touch of power while landing helps with elevator control, especially when you've got just two people up front, nobody in the back, and that heavy engine up front. If you typically fly by yourself, keeping a case of oil and a 5-gallon container of emergency water in the cargo hold sure helps move the CG a little aft.

I'm sure I'll think of more later... but you'll like the Six. Congrats on your purchase! Please post pics!

Troy
 
I now have 17 hours in the Six I LOVE IT! The CFI was in disbelief when he saw all the knowledge I had in flying the Six. All the knowledge I received from all of you , THANK YOU!!!!

My family and I took it to Minneapolis this week to visit family Even did some Garage sales and had room to bring home our new old junk.

Its is a joy to fly and so much more stable than the all the smaller aircraft I have flown. Love the Century 2000 AP makes flying so much less tiring.

My landing are not to bad , the biggest challenge is remembering to adjust approach speeds for varying weights , there is such a large envelope.
As some of you have said carrying a little more that 1.3 stall does make a big difference. I have decided to figure this way, 1.3 for 2600lbs, 1.35 for 3,000 and 1.4 3400 max gross weight. Is this a good plan????????

Dogman
 
dogman said:
As some of you have said carrying a little more that 1.3 stall does make a big difference. I have decided to figure this way, 1.3 for 2600lbs, 1.35 for 3,000 and 1.4 3400 max gross weight. Is this a good plan????????
Dogman
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Actually, the AOA varies and speed for same AOA varies by the square root of the change. So is you use 1.3 for 2600 lbs, for 3400 pounds you'd use sqrt(3400/2600)*1.3 or 1.48 Vso. If Vso is 60, then the difference is 10 knots over the whole range 2600 to 3400. And that works about right.

The six is just getting into the range of wing loading for which Vref starts to make sense, as in "What's Vref for our current load?"
 
bbchien said:
Actually, the AOA varies and speed for same AOA varies by the square root of the change. So is you use 1.3 for 2600 lbs, for 3400 pounds you'd use sqrt(3400/2600)*1.3 or 1.48 Vso. If Vso is 60, then the difference is 10 knots over the whole range 2600 to 3400. And that works about right.

The six is just getting into the range of wing loading for which Vref starts to make sense, as in "What's Vref for our current load?"
Click to expand...

Thanks Bruce

And I thank every one else for the help. You have made flying the Six a safer transition.

Dogman
 
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