Checkride yellow slips

[prophead5]

When I first started flight training back in the late 90's I busted my initial private, instrument and commercial. I always retook the ride the next day and passed no problem. I sometimes wonder if the failures occurred so the examiner could make a few extra $$$ but who knows. The areas that were to be retested were n the ppl, navigation, on the instrument, ndb approach and for the commercial pattern entry. Since then I have received a commercial seaplane, a CFI and CFII, a citation type rating, multi engine ATP, and a commercial helicopter with instrument. All of these ratings were passed on the first go round. My question is, will the busts early in my career hinder me when applying to the airlines?

 

[Captain]

Thought they were pink slips.

Anyway, to answer your question it isn't going to help. The airlines will pull those records and know about the busts, so don't bother trying to hide it. Most applications will ask and that may be used to filter the resumes so you may never even get a chance to explain.

Wish I had better news for you but in aviation today there is no limit to the memory of records and airlines can afford to be picky. With the ATP requirements the regionals may be more forgiving.

 

[ChitDisturber]

When I first started flight training back in the late 90's I busted my initial private, instrument and commercial. I always retook the ride the next day and passed no problem. I sometimes wonder if the failures occurred so the examiner could make a few extra $$$ but who knows. The areas that were to be retested were n the ppl, navigation, on the instrument, ndb approach and for the commercial pattern entry. Since then I have received a commercial seaplane, a CFI and CFII, a citation type rating, multi engine ATP, and a commercial helicopter with instrument. All of these ratings were passed on the first go round. My question is, will the busts early in my career hinder me when applying to the airlines?

Depends on where you go and who you apply with and how you explain the busts, as a ATP you should know this.

I've been a working pilot for a while now and have never even been asked if I had a bust. The places I worked and work have only asked if I had any accidents/incidents or enforcement actions.

That being said I'm not working on the mass public airline side of the house.

 

[Velocity173]

I busted my initial private because I couldn't plan the flight in 30 mins. About 2 weeks later 2 FAA inspectors tapped me on the shoulder when I was attended our base air show. They wanted to talk to me about the examiner and asked questions on how it went. I told them the details about the ride and that I thought the length of the X-country (168 nm) was a bit long to get done in 30 mins with all the planning that's involved. They informed me that they were investigating him because of his unusually high failure rate. The guy was an aircraft broker wearing gold chains and a gold watch. Kinda fit the profile I guess. When you're charging $250 a pop and then $150 for a retake, that adds up fast. Either way, I don't care what came of the investigation. I'm a better pilot for going through that.

 

[marcoseddi]

I busted my initial private because I couldn't plan the flight in 30 mins. About 2 weeks later 2 FAA inspectors tapped me on the shoulder when I was attended our base air show. They wanted to talk to me about the examiner and asked questions on how it went. I told them the details about the ride and that I thought the length of the X-country (168 nm) was a bit long to get done in 30 mins with all the planning that's involved. They informed me that they were investigating him because of his unusually high failure rate. The guy was an aircraft broker wearing gold chains and a gold watch. Kinda fit the profile I guess. When you're charging $250 a pop and then $150 for a retake, that adds up fast. Either way, I don't care what came of the investigation. I'm a better pilot for going through that.

Thats messed up but cool u sucked it up and still did it again and passed and continued obviously.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I busted my initial private because I couldn't plan the flight in 30 mins. About 2 weeks later 2 FAA inspectors tapped me on the shoulder when I was attended our base air show. They wanted to talk to me about the examiner and asked questions on how it went. I told them the details about the ride and that I thought the length of the X-country (168 nm) was a bit long to get done in 30 mins with all the planning that's involved. They informed me that they were investigating him because of his unusually high failure rate. The guy was an aircraft broker wearing gold chains and a gold watch. Kinda fit the profile I guess. When you're charging $250 a pop and then $150 for a retake, that adds up fast. Either way, I don't care what came of the investigation. I'm a better pilot for going through that.

Man, what a jerk. My DPE gave me KMSN-KSBN which was about 208 miles with the route I chose and there was NO WAY I could have planned that in 30 minutes. Heck I think it took me longer to plan my flight from KMSN-KOSH which was a third of that distance.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Depends on where you go and who you apply with and how you explain the busts, as a ATP you should know this.

How you explain the busts (ie you screwed up and learned something goes MUCH farther than the 'DPE was a jerk') definitely matters.

As far as the number of busts....a lot has changed since Colgan 3407. One bust (especially on the CFI rides) is no big deal. Multiple busts could indicate a pattern and if there are a lot of applicants, that can't help but hurt you with the 121 crowd and many 135 operators...especially if you go with the 'DPE must have been a jerk' line.

 

[taters]

From what I've been told by HR when I was conducting interviews 2-3 failures will raise a little flag during screening.....especially post flight training rides.(PC's,line checks etc)


In every class it seems like there are 1 or 4 people that get pulled due to "forgetting" about failed check rides...there was a guy in my class a few years back that forgot about a failed PC 20 years ago...someone came to the door in class and asked him to bring his stuff with him...you know what happened next.

Be upfront and exact with what they will see on paper about you..as for everything else...its an interview not a confessional

 

[poadeleted20]

Thought they were pink slips.

Back in the old days when examiners had those books of forms with carbon copies, the Notice of Disapproval was pink. Hence, the term "pink slip", which has lived on beyond the era of actual pink paper copies.

Now that it's all a computer printout, they're whatever color paper the examiner puts in the printer. I suppose now an examiner could use green for a Temporary Airman Certificate, white for a Letter of Discontinuance, and pink for Notice of Disapproval, but I've never heard of anyone doing that.

 

[poadeleted20]

Man, what a jerk.

In those days, you did not preplan the XC, but were assigned it upon arrival at the test site. The PTS had a time limit on planning the flight (don't remember exactly what it was, although I think it was more than 30 minutes -- perhaps an hour), and if you didn't get it done, the examiner did not have the option to waive that standard. Likewise, the examiner did not have the prerogative to shorten that limit, so if the book said you had one hour, you had one hour. What wasn't in writing is that he examiner could give you an exceptionally difficult flight to plan, but I never heard of that happening.

Of course, today, the examiner is required to assign the flight in advance so you can plan it at home and bring your completed planning/briefing materials to the test. As long as you can answer all the questions and explain your materials, you've met the standard no matter how long it took to get it all prepared.

But to answer the original question, I'm not sure a prospective employer can even find out if you've failed practical tests way back when unless you tell them.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Thanks Ron, I didn't know that. That puts it in perspective... I'm not really fast at planning, I would have failed

 

[ChitDisturber]

How you explain the busts (ie you screwed up and learned something goes MUCH farther than the 'DPE was a jerk') definitely matters.

As far as the number of busts....a lot has changed since Colgan 3407. One bust (especially on the CFI rides) is no big deal. Multiple busts could indicate a pattern and if there are a lot of applicants, that can't help but hurt you with the 121 crowd and many 135 operators...especially if you go with the 'DPE must have been a jerk' line.

Busts werent the issues in the colgan crash, nor were ATP requirements.

Working conditions/quality of life for the pilots AND lack of professionalism were the causes, those things aint as easy to quantify, put into a spreadsheet, calculate and "fix" Now changing some hours and counting busts, he11 even a spider monkey and figure that out.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

What WERE the issues in the Colgan crash besides the fact that he was incapable of flying the airplane? The right seat was also way in over her head. A completely avoidable accident.

 

[ChitDisturber]

What WERE the issues in the Colgan crash besides the fact that he was incapable of flying the airplane? The right seat was also way in over her head. A completely avoidable accident.

Uhh, they had the hours which would have qualified them even under the post 2014 ATP rules, the ride that was busted was a COMPANY RIDE,

Besides screwing up a ride during your primary flight training, sorry thats just not that important, screwing up company rides that's something that can follow you.

Not investing in your pilots for one, if some fails a ride there are a few possibilities, poor instructor resulting in a inadquitly prepared pilot (that pay for training program they used was kinda sketch anyways).


You want safe pilots, INVEST in them, pay them enough that they can live a more stress free and happy life, INVEST in their training and at a quality facility, INVEST in their health both medically and schedule wise, tired, sick, pre-occupied and undertrained pilots are the DIRECT responsibility of the airline.

 

[Velocity173]

To get back to what the OP is asking, I actually emailed my hiring manager today about my busted checkride. I didn't remember it being asked in my interview from over a year and half ago but disclosure is listed in AC120-68F as a pilot requirement. Anyway, she didn't care. If it's not something that shows up on their PRIA records check, then it doesn't get factored in. As Ron said, I'm sure they never would have found out anyway but I'm a believer in total honesty, especially when it comes to aviation matters. If some failed practical from a PPL in a completely different category aircraft from over 20 yrs ago prevents me from flying as a professional pilot, so be it. I've already proven myself several times by sailing through my 135 rides anyway so it's not something I really worry about.

I should say to the OP I fly Part 135 helos and not 121 airlines. Perhaps you may interview with a company that puts some weight in a failed checkride, especially in the competitive climate of 121 ops.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Busts werent the issues in the colgan crash, nor were ATP requirements.

Busts were most definitely an issue. The PIC (the one that pulled the yoke into his gut when the stall started) had several failed check rides and line checks. He had been through, as you might say, a 'chit load' of remedial training.

I fully agree that the ATP time requirements had nothing to do with it however.

 

[ChitDisturber]

To get back to what the OP is asking, I actually emailed my hiring manager today about my busted checkride. I didn't remember it being asked in my interview from over a year and half ago but disclosure is listed in AC120-68F as a pilot requirement. Anyway, she didn't care. If it's not something that shows up on their PRIA records check, then it doesn't get factored in. As Ron said, I'm sure they never would have found out anyway but I'm a believer in total honesty, especially when it comes to aviation matters. If some failed practical from a PPL in a completely different category aircraft from over 20 yrs ago prevents me from flying as a professional pilot, so be it. I've already proven myself several times by sailing through my 135 rides anyway so it's not something I really worry about.

I should say to the OP I fly Part 135 helos and not 121 airlines. Perhaps you may interview with a company that puts some weight in a failed checkride, especially in the competitive climate of 121 ops.

Funny thing is it's not going to be as competitive for applicants for 121 anymore with the new rules, well that is if you have your ATP already.


Long and short, I wouldnt worry about a failed 61 or 141

 

[denverpilot]

Back in the old days when examiners had those books of forms with carbon copies, the Notice of Disapproval was pink. Hence, the term "pink slip", which has lived on beyond the era of actual pink paper copies.

Now that it's all a computer printout, they're whatever color paper the examiner puts in the printer. I suppose now an examiner could use green for a Temporary Airman Certificate, white for a Letter of Discontinuance, and pink for Notice of Disapproval, but I've never heard of anyone doing that.

My PP DPE reached for the pink one, but didn't put it in the typewriter, and I wondered as he looked like he couldn't make up his mind... no, I'm not kidding. I'd worked WAY too hard and wondered WTF... and he hadn't cut off the ride or any of the stuff you hear about today being the proper way to do things... so I asked politely... "What did I do wrong?"

He said, "I think the ride was fine, but the FAA is concerned about something this year and I didn't see you both tune and IDENTIFY the NavAids."

That's when I said, "I know Morse Code."

Seriously. I'm sitting there arguing that I *did* ID the stations. LOL...

He looks at me funny and then decides to test it. For the next what seemed like FOREVER he picks random navaids off the charts, and attempts to sound them out in morse, poorly. I copy them all and tell him the letters.

He sticks the white one in the typewriter and says, "I'll be darned. I didn't know anyone still knew Morse Code. Congratulations! I learned something today!"

And my stress level went WAY down... 'cause see, I was signed off to fly solo TO the test airport... but didn't have a sign off to go HOME.

That would have been a very embarrassing call to the CFI...

 

[Velocity173]

Back in the old days when examiners had those books of forms with carbon copies, the Notice of Disapproval was pink. Hence, the term "pink slip", which has lived on beyond the era of actual pink paper copies.

Now that it's all a computer printout, they're whatever color paper the examiner puts in the printer. I suppose now an examiner could use green for a Temporary Airman Certificate, white for a Letter of Discontinuance, and pink for Notice of Disapproval, but I've never heard of anyone doing that.

Ron what are the differences between the discontinuance and the disapproval? I don't even remember which one I got. All I know is that it was over before the flight started.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Ron what are the differences between the discontinuance and the disapproval? I don't even remember which one I got. All I know is that it was over before the flight started.

Disapproval is a fail and items failed must be retaken.

Discontinuance is a "stop" in the checkride for weather, a/c mechanical, etc and means the check ride may be resumed later and does not constitute a failure of previous failed items.

 

[Velocity173]

Disapproval is a fail and items failed must be retaken.

Discontinuance is a "stop" in the checkride for weather, a/c mechanical, etc and means the check ride may be resumed later and does not constitute a failure of previuos failed items.

OK, thanks. I'm pretty sure I got a disapproval then since it was a failure in planning on my part.

 

[GCA319]

My PP DPE reached for the pink one, but didn't put it in the typewriter, and I wondered as he looked like he couldn't make up his mind... no, I'm not kidding. I'd worked WAY too hard and wondered WTF... and he hadn't cut off the ride or any of the stuff you hear about today being the proper way to do things... so I asked politely... "What did I do wrong?"

He said, "I think the ride was fine, but the FAA is concerned about something this year and I didn't see you both tune and IDENTIFY the NavAids."

That's when I said, "I know Morse Code."

Seriously. I'm sitting there arguing that I *did* ID the stations. LOL...

He looks at me funny and then decides to test it. For the next what seemed like FOREVER he picks random navaids off the charts, and attempts to sound them out in morse, poorly. I copy them all and tell him the letters.

He sticks the white one in the typewriter and says, "I'll be darned. I didn't know anyone still knew Morse Code. Congratulations! I learned something today!"

And my stress level went WAY down... 'cause see, I was signed off to fly solo TO the test airport... but didn't have a sign off to go HOME.

That would have been a very embarrassing call to the CFI...

Sound like he was quite a feminine hygene product...

 

[denverpilot]

Sound like he was quite a feminine hygene product...

I never asked why he'd care. He was a fairly old guy in my memory but I was frankly, a kid. He was probably only as old as I am now. LOL!

I'm just glad he paused as he reached for the pink slip!!

He also could have just asked in the airplane. He acted like he was going to say something once during a tune and identify but didn't.

The rest of the ride was great. I botched the soft field a bit and he showed me some sight picture tips after I went around that still help to this day.

If nothing else, the experience left me with a good understanding that DPEs are just people and they're not to be feared. The guy was obviously sensing something he couldn't put his finger on because he didn't see me referencing and staring at the little Morse box on the chart. He just wasn't sure how to articulate it.

For all I know, the dramatic pause with the pink slip and the resulting discussion was completely planned to start the conversation.

Whatever. All's well that ends well.

 

[Meanee]

He said, "I think the ride was fine, but the FAA is concerned about something this year and I didn't see you both tune and IDENTIFY the NavAids."

Wow...

My ride, and I quote 100% of what DPE said "Ok, please fly to VOR XYZ, you don't have to ID it, just point your nose towards it."

Funny part is, that VOR was shown on GPS already...

 

[ChrisK]

Wow...

My ride, and I quote 100% of what DPE said "Ok, please fly to VOR XYZ, you don't have to ID it, just point your nose towards it."

Funny part is, that VOR was shown on GPS already...

Stu??

 

[Z06_Mir]

My PP DPE reached for the pink one, but didn't put it in the typewriter, and I wondered as he looked like he couldn't make up his mind... no, I'm not kidding. I'd worked WAY too hard and wondered WTF... and he hadn't cut off the ride or any of the stuff you hear about today being the proper way to do things... so I asked politely... "What did I do wrong?"

That's how I felt after my commercial ride, and my instrument ride. The IR ride is another story though (but I passed). We got out of the airplane after discussing a few small issues, but until the power off 180 I had felt OK. Well we get out and he goes to his office and I follow. He goes "Just a minute" and sits outside on his cell phone talking about his home remodel!! I'm sitting there, my CFI is sitting there, another CFI is sitting there we're all like uhhhhhhhh I passed, but it took him a 10 minute phone call with his general contractor before he told me.

The IR story is a bit different. The ride was rocky. I walked into his office before he did and my mom happened to be outside (we were going to go to lunch after) and the DPE goes "Yea she passed but I'm gonna give her a little chit about it." Thank goodness he talks loudly or else I would probably still be wondering if I passed Looking forward to ride number 4 with him in the coming months.

 

[Meanee]

Stu??

Nope. PM if you want a DPE name. He's in PA.

 

[denverpilot]

Wow...

My ride, and I quote 100% of what DPE said "Ok, please fly to VOR XYZ, you don't have to ID it, just point your nose towards it."

Funny part is, that VOR was shown on GPS already...

Heh. No GPS when I took my ride. Well not civilian anyway. Or not that any rental aircraft had in the training fleet.

One airplane I knew of had a LORAN-C and it wasn't a Skyhawk. Heh.

VOR was da bomb. Heh. And yeah, I know there's folks here who remember when VOR was new.

Just pointing out that tune and identify was on folk's minds in the " safety " world in those years 'cause there wasn't anything else except ADF/NDB in the panel. VOR (and pilotage) was primary.

Jesse didn't let me use it during IFR training, but I felt like I was totally cheating with the GPS on the iPad as backup "situational awareness" when the second DPE in my life, allowed it on the Instrument ride. Sooooo felt like I was cheating!

I was prepped to have to pretend it died, and to toss it in the back seat and go to paper, but the DPE got interested in my airplane's mild speed porpoising at 90 knots and he instead had me fly the last approach at 110 and 0 flap.

My airplane LOVES that configuration -- but after hours and hours at 90, I was feeling the time compression! Heh.

Or he was just a wise old coot and wanted to see how I'd react. I still probably had the option to exercise PIC authority and say no, or just perform.

I chose the latter, but I knew I had to do a serious "Whoa, Nellie!" at the bottom to hit the 1000' marker.

Heh. And a draggy 182 will do a pretty good "Whoa, Nellie!" if you're ready for it.

At KLNK I also really needed a big "Whoa!" because the silly STOL will keep it flying with Flaps 40 hanging out and you trying to slow it up, down to some ridiculously slow ground speeds at that altitude.

My Vfe beyond Flap 10 is 95 knots. (Or 110 MPH which is what it's placard is in, along with my oddball dual ASI with both rings.)

It's a power immediately to idle, stop descent, wait, wait, 95, flap handle all the way to 40, wait, hit 65, pitch down, now we're really coming down thing. Add slip if needed. Or you won't get there.

I think he just wanted a laugh if I missed, and wanted to see if I knew my airplane. I didn't miss, thankfully. (knock wood...)

I think it was an, "Are you thinking ahead?" test. But he honestly seemed interested in the speed changes and mumbles something about having seen similar in a Robby kitted airplane before.

Whatever it was, test or true teaching an esoteric trick learned somewhere lost in the logbook of time and his head ,about how to stop my particular airplane from doing that, I enjoyed the learning and the challenge.

Still felt like I was hauling ass after hours and hours at 90. Heh heh.

Oh and before anyone analyzes this too much and wonders why Jesse didn't correct it, you can't read my ASI from the right seat at all. I've tried. Somehow by sound and feel the DPE sensed the 5 knot up and down and Jesse had quizzed about power changes that shouldn't have been necessary, too.

Like I said, somewhere lost in the years of flying in the DPEs head, he'd seen it before. It's very subtle.

If you drop to 85 knots, you'll need more power than you think you should, to get back to 90 with the full span "flap" created by the Robby kit drooping the ailerons -- is the only thing I've ever been able to come up with, to explain it. More drag... All the way across the wing. Flap 0, no Robby kit effect.

I've really enjoyed my two DPE experiences.

 

[Aviatrix]

What WERE the issues in the Colgan crash besides the fact that he was incapable of flying the airplane? The right seat was also way in over her head. A completely avoidable accident.

It was due to fatigue mainly but the CA had 3 failed check rides. Both of them commuted from other parts of the country and they weren't paid enough so at least I remember the FO slept in the crew room the night before. That's the crash that formed the new rest rules taking effect in January. There is an Air Crash Investigation about it with all the reasons.

My BF worked for them before the bankruptcy, I know their rule was 3 check rides failed is a big issue because of the crash. But I'm not sure how forgiving they were if they were not line checks or recurrents. I believe his current company has the same rule about 3 failed rides.

 

[Meanee]

It was due to fatigue mainly but the CA had 3 failed check rides. Both of them commuted from other parts of the country and they weren't paid enough so at least I remember the FO slept in the crew room the night before. That's the crash that formed the new rest rules taking effect in January. There is an Air Crash Investigation about it with all the reasons.

My BF worked for them before the bankruptcy, I know their rule was 3 check rides failed is a big issue because of the crash. But I'm not sure how forgiving they were if they were not line checks or recurrents. I believe his current company has the same rule about 3 failed rides.

There's a 1 hour special, called "Flying cheap" that is about regional airlines but mostly they focus on Colgan Air. Check it out. Was on Netflix recently.