Checkride question

Tristar

Tristar

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Tristar
I've been told up to this point that all ground reference maneuvers must be demonstrated twice by more than one instructor. I've looked in the PTS for both commercial and private and the only one that must be demonstrated twice according to it is the steep turn (in opposite directions). I do not recall doing any maneuver twice in previous checkrides unless I specifically asked to however this could have been the examiner's choice. Could someone please clarify this for me?
 
Is this a question specifically directed to the CFI ride?

I certainly was not asked to repeat most maneuvers on the PP and IA rides.
 
Its for the CFI ride but you are held to commercial standards. Which is why it was a little confusing.

The CFI PTS does not have the same type of standards (aka hold +/- 100ft +/-10kts)
 
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tristan, the only thing i can make sense of about your post is perhaps the following. I believe that the Airplane Flying Handbook defines turns around a point as at least two circles. Beyond that I know of no requirement to do a minimum number of rep's of any other ground reference manuever.
 
I know of nothing which says you must repeat any Task once it is accomplished successfully (notwithstanding a Task specifically requiring you to do the same thing in two different directions, like the Steep Turns you mentioned), and several things in the PTS and Examiner's Handbook (FAA Order 8900.2) which say the examiner is neither required nor desired to have you do it successfully more than once. Who's telling you this, and have you asked them where the saw it written?
 
Okay thats what I thought too.

I called my flight instructor to clarify what he meant. He said he talked to a DE about it because he had the same problem. The DE said it was in the Designated Examiner's handbook. I'm in the process of looking. However I have a problem if this is true. The PTS does not say that any manuever (other than stated) must be done twice, therefore how can they require us to show it correctly twice. Understandably, the DE has power to ask almost anything he wants of you within reason. Obviously he can't ask you to do an instrument approach during your commercial since it does not apply to your desired rating.
 
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I suppose if the DE wants to waste his time doing circles in the sky -- have at it.

It's not a requirement, but the silver lining is -- he's running out of time to do other stuff.
 
Most checkrides rarely last more than 1.5. There is a reason we're not required to do all the maneuvers, at least one of them is time. If it were the case that each maneuver had this requirement, I'm sure it would take longer and essentially add up to the same amount of time to do the same maneuver twice. Imagine how long the flight would be if steep spirals, eights on pylons, and even rectangular courses were required twice? This is why I have a hard time believing this is true.

I'm still looking but haven't found anything yet. DE handbook: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/orders/8900_2.htm
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Is there a time limit?
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You are right, there is no time limit. However, like I mentioned, I have a hard time seeing every maneuver required done twice in that average amount of time. I have been wrong before but...

Plus, if it was required, how come I've never done it in the past? Just CFI then?
 
Tristar said:
ground reference maneuvers must be demonstrated twice by more than one instructor
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Can you further define that statement? I'm not sure that what other people are saying here is based on what you are trying to say -- that said -- I think the DE is totally wrong.

Are they trying to say that a student needs *TWO* different instructors to both show them the ground reference maneuver? That'd be nuts.
 
jesse said:
Can you further define that statement? I'm not sure that what other people are saying here is based on what you are trying to say -- that said -- I think the DE is totally wrong.

Are they trying to say that a student needs *TWO* different instructors to both show them the ground reference maneuver? That'd be nuts.
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No what I mean is that the DE would require you to show maneuvers such as S turns or turns around a point twice in one flight. So instead of doing a 360, you would do a 720 for turns around a point.
 
dmccormack said:
For an FAA examiner -- no.

For a DPE -- it's his time.

My CFI ride spanned 2 hours, but 25 m of that was spent buttoning up the A36 and then pulling out the C172.
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Oh that sucks. So you did part of it in the A36 then? Just the landings like commercial?
 
Tristar said:
I called my flight instructor to clarify what he meant. He said he talked to a DE about it because he had the same problem. The DE said it was in the Designated Examiner's handbook.
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Here's where to find the DE Hbook:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...9d8c87c6c9ae86257567006ab547/$FILE/8900_2.pdf
I see nothing there suggesting that an examiner can require an applicant to repeat a successfully completed Task, and I've looked in the rules for practical tests for both general pilot/instructor (Section 2) and CFI (Section 15). The only thing I can find anywhere is from the CFI PTS:
If the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK.
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So unless the TASK requires repetion (like the Steep Turn, which must be done both ways), the TASK is complete after you've done it successfully once, and there's no authority for the examiner to request multiple iterations of the same TASK. If this examiner insists, have your Chief Instructor raise the matter with the POI at the FSDO.
 
Tristar said:
No what I mean is that the DE would require you to show maneuvers such as S turns or turns around a point twice in one flight. So instead of doing a 360, you would do a 720 for turns around a point.
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I think there's a difference between requiring the applicant to go twice around (especially if the first trip around was shaky but not unsatisfactory -- see the post above) and having you do a turn around one point, then another turn around another point later in the flight, with no reason for doing so other than to give you more chances to screw up.
 
jesse said:
Are they trying to say that a student needs *TWO* different instructors to both show them the ground reference maneuver? That'd be nuts.
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Ha, I was as confused as you by Tristan's choice of words, but I eventually figured out that the "more than one instructor" part was in reference to the quantity of CFI's who gave her the bad advice about repeating maneuvers.
 
gismo said:
Ha, I was as confused as you by Tristan's choice of words, but I eventually figured out that the "more than one instructor" part was in reference to the quantity of CFI's who gave her the bad advice about repeating maneuvers.
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Ahh..that totally makes more sense.
 
Tristar said:
Oh that sucks. So you did part of it in the A36 then? Just the landings like commercial?
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Yes -- he insisted that the various landings be conducted in a 172 (the A36 only had pilot side brakes)

So I demo'ed and talked him through a couple of manuevers. He nearly peed himself doing one power off stall....(The A36 with vortex generators is the most docile stalling airplane ever...)

I did 6 circuits in a C172 with a thunderstorm 10 miles southwest of the field.

Then we hopped back in the A36 and flew back.
 
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