changing aircraft registration category?

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I'm looking at some homebuilt motor gliders. There doesn't seem to be any consistency between whether they are registered as 'glider' or 'fixed wing single engine'. Even different aircraft of the same type have been registered different ways.

If I buy one in that is registered in one category, is it possible to get it re-registered in the other? If so, how hard is that to do?

 

[poadeleted20]

Unless it's an E-AB, I do not believe it's possible to change the category of an aircraft like that without going through the full recertification process in the new category, and I don't think you want to pay what that would cost. FWIW, I think the FAA has some standards on how they determine whether a motoglider falls in the Airplane or Glider categories, and I suspect that you'd have to modify the aircraft so it fits the new category, not just do paperwork.

 

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I'm talking about amateur built ones. Some are certified as gliders, some of the exact same models are certified as fixed wing single engine, so there doesn't seem to be any consistency. I assume it's up to what the builder and FSDO agreed on.

I just wanted to know if it'd be possible to switch it between the two and how hard that would be. There is a bunch of restoration work on one i'm looking at. I was hoping in the process of getting it airworthy again that i could get it swapped over to glider certification instead of the current airplane. I know there are some of the same type that are certified as gliders and it is specifically designed as a glider. I guess I should just call the FSDO and ask.

 

[tonycondon]

i think the main criteria for getting registered as a motor glider has to do with span loading. i suspect some guys who build them don't have glider ratings and don't want to go through glider training and a motorglider endorsement so they register them as airplanes. Others in the past probably preferred the motorglider registration since it doesn't require a medical, but now with Light Sport it might fall under those rules with an airplane registration.

I would think you could get a new airworthiness cert issued with a motorglider category with an inspection from the FSDO. It's relatively painless and if you'll need to do a bunch of work to the glider anyway won't be much more effort from your perspective.

What type are you looking at?

 

[poadeleted20]

If it's span loading, you'll have to lengthen or clip the wings to change it.

 

[tonycondon]

The aircraft in question probably meets the span loading requirement but the builder chose to register it is an airplane

 

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Tony, I'm looking into options for a strojnik s2a. This one is registered as an airplane, but some of the same model are registered as gliders.

 

[poadeleted20]

Tony, I'm looking into options for a strojnik s2a. This one is registered as an airplane, but some of the same model are registered as gliders.

Then I think your best answer will come from an Airworthiness Inspector at your local FSDO.

 

[kkoran]

If it's span loading, you'll have to lengthen or clip the wings to change it.

An aircraft that meets the motorglider criteria...

b. Additional Criteria for Powered Gliders.
(1) Powered fixed wing gliders may be type certificated under Section 21.17(b) if:
(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;
(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and
(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0 kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...lar.nsf/list/AC 21.17-2A/$FILE/AC21-17-2a.pdf

...can be registered as a motorglider, but that doesn't mean it has to be registered as a motorglider.

 

[poadeleted20]

An aircraft that meets the motorglider criteria...
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...lar.nsf/list/AC 21.17-2A/$FILE/AC21-17-2a.pdf

...can be registered as a motorglider, but that doesn't mean it has to be registered as a motorglider.

"Registered" and "certificated" are two entirely different things. Once it's certificated, it has to be recertificated by FAA Airworthiness if you want to change the certification category. That's real hard for Standard aircraft, but I don't know what's involved for E-AB.

 

[kkoran]

"Registered" and "certificated" are two entirely different things. Once it's certificated, it has to be recertificated by FAA Airworthiness if you want to change the certification category. That's real hard for Standard aircraft, but I don't know what's involved for E-AB.

My mistake in terminology. The link I provided dealt with certification.

 

[poadeleted20]

My mistake in terminology. The link I provided dealt with certification.

Exactly. You can't just re-register the plane, you have to go through a re-certification process. As long as the motorglider meets the requirements for certification in the other category, I'm sure it can be done, but I suspect it's not really feasible for an individual owner unless it's an E-AB.

 

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According the the airworthiness person at the local FSDO, it can only be changed if there was a mistake in the original assignment. He did not specify what such a mistake would be, but offered to look through the records if I provided the N-number. He claims he's done this before, but if there is nothing wrong with the original assignment, it is stuck with what it is.

 

[tonycondon]

was it Joe?

how big of a basket case is it? report it as destroyed and build a new plane from the parts.

 

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was it Joe?

how big of a basket case is it? report it as destroyed and build a new plane from the parts.

I spoke to Tony at the FSDO - didn't catch his last name. He seemed pretty open to researching whether there was a mistake that would allow it to be switched over, but didn't seem to think there was any hope if there wasn't a mistake made in certifying it as an airplane. And he couldn't elaborate on what would constitute a mistake. Not sure if the rebuild from parts is a valid option yet, i still have to figure out how much work needs to be done it.

My approach was going to be getting it flying without the engine (aerotow and ballast in place of the engine), and then worry about getting the engine sorted out. Don't think I can do that if it's registered as an airplane.

BTW Tony, do you know any good people/places in the midwest where I could get a self launch endorsement?

 

[poadeleted20]

My approach was going to be getting it flying without the engine (aerotow and ballast in place of the engine), and then worry about getting the engine sorted out. Don't think I can do that if it's registered as an airplane.

Unless there is provision for removing the engine in the existing Operating Limitations, I don't think you can do that even if it's registered as a Glider without getting a new Airworthiness certificate in the "Experimental-Showing compliance with regulations" category, and then only for a limited time to get a new Airworthiness Certificate sans engine. Even E-AB aircraft can't be substantially altered like that without some recertification/inspection by the FAA or FAA designee.

 

[tonycondon]

I spoke to Tony at the FSDO - didn't catch his last name. He seemed pretty open to researching whether there was a mistake that would allow it to be switched over, but didn't seem to think there was any hope if there wasn't a mistake made in certifying it as an airplane. And he couldn't elaborate on what would constitute a mistake. Not sure if the rebuild from parts is a valid option yet, i still have to figure out how much work needs to be done it.

My approach was going to be getting it flying without the engine (aerotow and ballast in place of the engine), and then worry about getting the engine sorted out. Don't think I can do that if it's registered as an airplane.

BTW Tony, do you know any good people/places in the midwest where I could get a self launch endorsement?

Matt M has a self launch endorsement but the trick is finding a two seater. There is a guy who has been advertising lately on Barnstormers...otherwise I know of a guy in Tennessee. There is a guy down here too, but once again, he doesn't have access to a two seater to provide the training.

I would suggest to the FSDO that the fact that it meets the motorglider criteria and is designed as a self launching glider, not an airplane, is enough to constitute that a mistake was made on the original certification.

 

[poadeleted20]

I would suggest to the FSDO that the fact that it meets the motorglider criteria and is designed as a self launching glider, not an airplane, is enough to constitute that a mistake was made on the original certification.

Let's confirm here that we're talking about an E-AB aircraft. Otherwise, about all the FSDO can do is refer the question to the Aircraft Certification Office which issued the type certificate.

 

[tonycondon]

yes the Strojnik S-2A is a E-AB

 

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Unless there is provision for removing the engine in the existing Operating Limitations, I don't think you can do that even if it's registered as a Glider without getting a new Airworthiness certificate in the "Experimental-Showing compliance with regulations" category, and then only for a limited time to get a new Airworthiness Certificate sans engine. Even E-AB aircraft can't be substantially altered like that without some recertification/inspection by the FAA or FAA designee.

Thank you for the info. I will keep it in mind. I thought it would be somewhat simpler. I'm told others have done this before, so i'll have to track down someone who has and see how they made it work. Tony is correct, it is an E-AB.

Matt M has a self launch endorsement but the trick is finding a two seater. There is a guy who has been advertising lately on Barnstormers...otherwise I know of a guy in Tennessee. There is a guy down here too, but once again, he doesn't have access to a two seater to provide the training.

Yeah, Matt told me I'd likely have difficulty finding someone with a two seater for the endorsement. Thanks for the heads up on the barnstormers ad. If that doesn't work out, I might have to give up on trying to find someone local and just plan a trip somewhere further away.

I would suggest to the FSDO that the fact that it meets the motorglider criteria and is designed as a self launching glider, not an airplane, is enough to constitute that a mistake was made on the original certification.

That is my thinking. I'm hoping it helps that the prototype made by the original designer was certified as a glider.