CFI in need of a plane

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Superpilot61

Filing Flight Plan
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Superpilot61
I have a friend who seriously wants to get there pilot license. i recently got my CFI. what is the best way to go about getting and airplane to teach him in? its not like i could just rent an airplane from my fbo and give instruction in it right? or at least i know he would never be able to solo in it. so what are my options?
 
-- Have him buy a raggedy 150 with a solid engine and name you as pilot/CFI on his policy.

-- Talk to a FBO two airports over about having your student block-rent one of their trainers. Park the plane in the transient tiedowns for only a few days at a time. May require ironing out some insurance wrinkles like getting you on the other FBOs policy.

-- Buy a raggedy 150 yourself, fight the airport authority and existing flight schools tooth and nails and go broke over the insurance cost and artificial expense created by going that route.

-- Find a genuine flying club with trainers, he becomes a full member, you a CFI member. Has some issues with potential limitations on reimbursement for your work, but neither the flying club nor the airport authority need to really know about your arrangements with the student*.

*don't break the plane or allow the student to kill himself, things could get sticky under that arrangement.
 
weilke said:
-- Have him buy a raggedy 150 with a solid engine and name you as pilot/CFI on his policy.

-- Talk to a FBO two airports over about having your student block-rent one of their trainers. Park the plane in the transient tiedowns for only a few days at a time. May require ironing out some insurance wrinkles like getting you on the other FBOs policy.

-- Buy a raggedy 150 yourself, fight the airport authority and existing flight schools tooth and nails and go broke over the insurance cost and artificial expense created by going that route.

-- Find a genuine flying club with trainers, he becomes a full member, you a CFI member. Has some issues with potential limitations on reimbursement for your work, but neither the flying club nor the airport authority need to really know about your arrangements with the student*.

*don't break the plane or allow the student to kill himself, things could get sticky under that arrangement.
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Having worked through all these scenarios, the student buying, you named is the absolute best option.
 
why would i need to park the plane in a neutral airport location?

do you think there is any way an FBO would work with me if the knew my situation? i mean what are the chances they let a student pilot fly solo from my sign-off?
 
dmccormack said:
Having worked through all these scenarios, the student buying, you named is the absolute best option.
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Outside of option #3, it is also the 'most legal' one.

The student with his own plane is an 'individual user' and as such can't be restricted by the FBO on a FAA funded airport from bringing in 'his' CFI. Option #3 is financially and politically difficult (unless you have someone with pull and a full FBO license on the airport who is willing to rent you a corner of his office).

Options #2 and #4 require some bending of rules, either insurance or airport licensing wise. If done with some degree of stealthyness or at a larger field #2 can work, but it may lead to hurt feelings if the existing on-airport businesses catch on to what you are doing.
 
How about going to work as an instructor at your local FBO? Most FBO's are quite happy to hire p/t instructors who bring their own trainees.
 
Superpilot61 said:
why would i need to park the plane in a neutral airport location?
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If you bring another commercial airport users aircraft onto an airport with an existing flight school / FBO, you sort of operate on an airport as a commercial outfit without having cleared that with the airport sponsor. The existing FBO who pays dues to the airport could get quite upset if they find out that they are cut out of the loop.

do you think there is any way an FBO would work with me if the knew my situation? i mean what are the chances they let a student pilot fly solo from my sign-off?
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Talk to them. They may be interested to get additional hours on their planes. Depending on how their insurance is written, they may be restricted to only have staff instructors instruct on their aircraft. If that is the case, they can either make you staff (e.g. as independent contractor) or get some sort of rider from the insurer (including conditions such as passing a ride with their chief CFI before starting to instruct).
Odds are they won't go for it thinking that they 'loose' their $20/hr share of your instruction activity. If they have the 'long view', they will support you and allow you to bring in more customers who may eventually buy and base aircraft with them. People in aviation business are not known for having the 'long view'.
 
thanks for all the good answers... with that being said i think ill contact the gentleman that signed me off for my cfi ( didnt do much training with him but i needed a sign off basicly) and ask him to basicly hire me as part timer and let me train my friend.

would it be stupid to tell him he basicly doesnt have to pay me and ill get paid directly from the student. ( at a pretty cheap rate since we are freids) and my friend can just pay him directly for the aircraft renting. sounds like a good plan to me im just so ready to get some instruction given under my belt. ill work for free!! i really would right now.

am i seriously crazy to ask to work for free???
 
Superpilot61 said:
would it be stupid to tell him he basicly doesnt have to pay me and ill get paid directly from the student. ( at a pretty cheap rate since we are freids) and my friend can just pay him directly for the aircraft renting.
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If he has to keep you as his employee or agent, that wouldn't work.

sounds like a good plan to me im just so ready to get some instruction given under my belt. ill work for free!! i really would right now.
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Don't say that too loudly around here. Everyone knows what is being done but a couple of folks get very huffed up if someone actually admits to it.
 
Why would he have to list a Pilot/CFI on what policy? AOPA insured my plane while I was a student without any such listing. Or were you saying another policy?
 
Aviator N434S said:
Why would he have to list a Pilot/CFI on what policy? AOPA insured my plane while I was a student without any such listing. Or were you saying another policy?
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Superpilot61 is asking about acting as a CFI. We (the greater "we") are giving him advice about protecting his interests. Including, protecting him from liability (or rather, being bankrupted by it.)

Your policy coverage likely generally includes scenarios where you are receiving instruction, yes, without adding a specific CFI to your policy. If there is an accident your company will cover hull damage, yes, even with the CFI at the controls. And your liability, up to the policy limits, yes, even with a CFI at the controls. The CFI's liability in your plane? Not so much. Unless he/she is an actual named insured.

(YMMV etc etc)
 
At our field the instructors just have a handshake deal with the FBO... The student pays the the FBO for the plane rental and pays the CFI separately...

denny-o
 
Aviator N434S said:
Why would he have to list a Pilot/CFI on what policy? AOPA insured my plane while I was a student without any such listing. Or were you saying another policy?
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Whatever the respective policy says. Some require the CFI to have x number of hours in type before instructing. If he is listed as additional insured, he is covered, no matter who is eventually found responsible.
 
Open pilot warranty = Your plane and your interests protected while another pilot is flying it so long as that pilot meets qualifications outlined in the OPW. Even a CFI might be required to have specific make and model time. This is generally what the "CFI" or instruction coverage is similar to. Your liability covered up to policy limits while another pilot is flying it. Airplane damage covered. Other pilot flying it is probably not protected by your policy from their legal liability.

Named insured = covered exactly as the primary pilot/owner would be covered including liability coverage up to the policy limits. Sometimes also referred to as "named pilot" though you should read the fine print to be sure. Rule of thumb: if the person's name does not actually appear individually on the policy documents they sure aren't a named pilot.
 
Dr. O said:
At our field the instructors just have a handshake deal with the FBO... The student pays the the FBO for the plane rental and pays the CFI separately...
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There can be legal issues with that, including FAA, IRS, insurance, and labor law problems, which is why that's not a common practice.
 
Ron Levy said:
There can be legal issues with that, including FAA, IRS, insurance, and labor law problems, which is why that's not a common practice.
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I would be interested to know what those issues are.

I do see the insurance issue, but that can be dealt with in a number of ways.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Issues with whether you are their independent contractor subject to their requirements for income reporting to the IRS. I suppose.
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If you bring the customer, schedule the lessons, bill the customer and work for the customer, you don't have much of any relationship with the FBO at all. There is no issue with the IC rules. Of course you have to report your income under schedule C and make estimated quarterly tax payments (FICA + income) for that work.

If the FBO keeps you listed as one of 'their' flight instructors, schedules the lessons, assumes the risk for your work and pays you as IC on a 1099, there may well be an IRS issue.
 
weilke said:
I would be interested to know what those issues are.
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It varies by state, so there's no single answer. But if the state thinks someone is trying to get around state employment law (workman's comp, etc) through this deal, it could be difficult for the FBO just as it's a problem with IRS. If the instructor is truly independent and contracted only to the trainee/renter, and has no relationship whatsoever with the FBO, there will almost certainly be real trouble with the FBO's insurer (they normally don't allow outside instructors) just as if the renter let someone else fly the plane s/he rented from the FBO.
 
Ron Levy said:
It varies by state, so there's no single answer. But if the state thinks someone is trying to get around state employment law (workman's comp, etc) through this deal, it could be difficult for the FBO just as it's a problem with IRS. If the instructor is truly independent and contracted only to the trainee/renter, and has no relationship whatsoever with the FBO, there will almost certainly be real trouble with the FBO's insurer (they normally don't allow outside instructors) just as if the renter let someone else fly the plane s/he rented from the FBO.
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So if I hire handyman Jorge to change the sand in my kids sandbox and rent a gas-powered wheelbarrow from ACE-rentals for him to do the job, ACE-rentals has to worry about state labor going after them for not paying Jorges unemployment insurance :crazy: . Rright.
 
weilke said:
So if I hire handyman Jorge to change the sand in my kids sandbox and rent a gas-powered wheelbarrow from ACE-rentals for him to do the job, ACE-rentals has to worry about state labor going after them for not paying Jorges unemployment insurance :crazy: . Rright.
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In the one in a million case -- maybe. :skeptical:

Sometimes I think folks get worried about the .000001% problem just cause they can.
 
weilke said:
So if I hire handyman Jorge to change the sand in my kids sandbox and rent a gas-powered wheelbarrow from ACE-rentals for him to do the job, ACE-rentals has to worry about state labor going after them for not paying Jorges unemployment insurance :crazy: . Rright.
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You need to make sure you have an owner-contractor relationship with Jorge, lest you end up being found to be an employer and having to pay when he hurts himself. And in the absence of a written contract, providing equipment could make you look like an employer...
 
Trapper John said:
You need to make sure you have an owner-contractor relationship with Jorge, lest you end up being found to be an employer and having to pay when he hurts himself. And in the absence of a written contract, providing equipment could make you look like an employer...
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Seriously? When the Feds give Docs a pass on up to $500k/annual medicare / medicaid fraud cause there are "bigger fish to fry," they're going to snoop after Jorge tacking on shingles?

Puh-leeeeze
 
dmccormack said:
Seriously? When the Feds give Docs a pass on up to $500k/annual medicare / medicaid fraud cause there are "bigger fish to fry," they're going to snoop after Jorge tacking on shingles?

Puh-leeeeze
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No, it doesn't have anything to do with the Feds, it's a liability (tort) issue.
 
Trapper John said:
You need to make sure you have an owner-contractor relationship with Jorge, lest you end up being found to be an employer and having to pay when he hurts himself. And in the absence of a written contract, providing equipment could make you look like an employer...
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But it doesn't make ACE-rentals look like an employer right ?

If I provide a plane to an independent CFI who provides me with training, does that mean I am at risk of being held as an employer ?

(For a good part of my training, I rented the plane from a FBO and received my training from an independent CFI. He sent me bills for his services, tax-ID and all. He holds out to the public to provide such services. He doesn't work full-time or close to it for me, has full discretion on how to do his job, works for others, realizes a profit and is exposed to the risk of loss, .......
So no, I am not worried about being held liable for FICA on his 'wages'.)
 
dmccormack said:
In the one in a million case -- maybe. :skeptical:
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Or in California :rolleyes: .

Sometimes I think folks get worried about the .000001% problem just cause they can.
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It is a purely theoretical concern. My Jorge example was simply an analogy to show how little of a concern 'labor law' is in this situation.

From a liability standpoint, operator of the plane (FBO), CFI and student will be on the hook for any training related accident. Each of them better carry insurance, I understand that that insurance is somewhat difficult to come by for independent CFIs.
 
weilke said:
I understand that that insurance is somewhat difficult to come by for independent CFIs.
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Figure close to $800+ :eek:!
I was going to be flying with a guy in an un-insured aircraft he would be using and he said he'd give me a certain figure to help with the cost. We'd have been flying a certain amount that would make it worthwhile for me. So, I went ahead and purchased the insurance... Still haven't flown with him yet! That put a big ouch in my wallet. About the same as I made in one of the last three months!

Ryan
 
weilke said:
Per month or per year ?
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Year. With Avemco. The cheapest I was able to find. Now to get some more independent work to justify it. It was a bit more peace of mind flying with a one-eyed student pilot in his Skyhawk!

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
Year. With Avemco. The cheapest I was able to find.
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That sounds like steal. Compared with general business liability on other stuff that is. I guess you can't 'slip-n-fall' in front of a CFI.

Make sure it covers all reasonable risks.

Is that $800 total or on top of another non-owned policy.
 
weilke said:
That sounds like steal. Compared with general business liability on other stuff that is. I guess you can't 'slip-n-fall' in front of a CFI.

Make sure it covers all reasonable risks.

Is that $800 total or on top of another non-owned policy.
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It's a steal if you have a problem, but when you have a month that you only make $850ish it sounds really, really expensive. Actually, the month I paid for it, I think I made under $700 as an instructor. I did it to expand opportunities, or at least feel more comfortable taking risks.
It does cover other non-owned aircraft for me as well and a hull value up to I think $50K. That does NOT mean that I wouldn't want to be added to the owners insurance as a named pilot, mainly covers if I make a mistake.

Ryan
 
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RyanShort1 said:
Actually, the month I paid for it, I think I made under $700 as an instructor. I did it to expand opportunities, or at least feel more comfortable taking risks.
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Well, a regular non-owned policy for 50k hull value (prop, engine, belly-skins ;) ) is $500+, so adding the instruction endorsement is really not that expensive.

If you instruct 100hrs/year, you are looking at $8/hr that you need to roll into your hourly charge.
 
weilke said:
Well, a regular non-owned policy for 50k hull value (prop, engine, belly-skins ;) ) is $500+, so adding the instruction endorsement is really not that expensive.

If you instruct 100hrs/year, you are looking at $8/hr that you need to roll into your hourly charge.
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Can't do that effectively right now since I'm "independent" but everything gets billed through the flight school. If I do it for someone outside of the school, that absolutely has to factor in to the equation - but, if you're an aircraft owner looking for a CFI to teach in your plane, it would be best to have either a named pilot on your insurance as the CFI, or a guy who has his own insurance like me in the unlikely event that we hit a deer or a pothole, or the like while the CFI is demonstrating something.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
Can't do that effectively right now since I'm "independent" but everything gets billed through the flight school.
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You may want to talk to an accountant about that setup. If they schedule your lessons, bill for them and provide your 'tools' you could indeed run into a challenge of your 'independent' status tax-wise.
 
weilke said:
You may want to talk to an accountant about that setup. If they schedule your lessons, bill for them and provide your 'tools' you could indeed run into a challenge of your 'independent' status tax-wise.
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I do schedule my own lessons at least, and try hard to get my own students.

Ryan
 
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