Cessna P210 Silver Eagle vs Meridian/Propjet

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

I used the search and didn't come up with any threads about this.

So if you were in the market for a low end pressurized turboprop, which of these two has the best useful load and range??

Is there much difference between the -21 and -35 engines on the Propjet conversion??

 

[Kelvin]

An older Merdian with the G950 or G500/600 upgrades from Cutter is an excellent value.

As I understand it, Cutter has an STC to do a gross weight increase and has taken out all of the Meggit electronics and simplified the panel by a large degree.

The difference between a -21 and -35 PT6 is in the horespower. I "think" this is designated by the DLX and DL prefixes...I recall a conversation wit he JetProp guy telling me that this equated to minimal performance difference...whatever that means...

You can get much more information from the MMOPA website on the Jet Props and Meridians. www.mmopa.org

 

[darrell]

The -21 is 550shp, the -35 is 750shp.

 

[stratobee]

The Silver Eagle runs the Allison/Rolls-Royce 250, right? As I recall, they have a lower thermal rating and will lose steam up high. But they're also very proven engines (fitted in almost every turbine helicopter made), reliable and have good fuel economy.

 

[Henning]

The Silver Eagle runs the Allison/Rolls-Royce 250, right? As I recall, they have a lower thermal rating and will lose steam up high. But they're also very proven engines (fitted in almost every turbine helicopter made), reliable and have good fuel economy.

Good fuel economy, from a turbine? Kind of an oxymoron there.

 

[bnt83]

Good fuel economy, from a turbine? Kind of an oxymoron there.

Exactly. Very neat planes, but I don't really see the point.

 

[bnt83]

The Silver Eagle runs the Allison/Rolls-Royce 250, right?

It does

 

[Ted]

I think the two planes are pretty different and it depends on what you want. Personally, I'd go for the Meridian/Jetprop. Much nicer cabin than a 210, and I expect significantly faster. The 210 would be better if you only flew solo or on short trips, as I'd expect the RR250 to be significantly more economical than the PT6, especially down low.

 

[Alexb2000]

If we are talking about operating in North America I'm not sure I the value is there with either of these birds for most missions. I have a friend who operates a very nice Jet Prop, his maintenance cost blow my mind. Of course if you can get an annual for a case of beer like many do here, then that wouldn't be a big deal. His bird is basically a 3-4 person plus baggage machine at most. One of the keys to the Jet Prop is that being a conversion not just anyone is familiar with them. For example, he takes his from NM to KA for maintenance, which has expenses in and of itself.

Depending on mission, I'd probably look at a cabin class piston twin.

 

[bnt83]

If we are talking about operating in North America I'm not sure I the value is there with either of these birds for most missions. I have a friend who operates a very nice Jet Prop, his maintenance cost blow my mind. Of course if you can get an annual for a case of beer like many do here, then that wouldn't be a big deal. His bird is basically a 3-4 person plus baggage machine at most. One of the keys to the Jet Prop is that being a conversion not just anyone is familiar with them. For example, he takes his from NM to KA for maintenance, which has expenses in and of itself.

Depending on mission, I'd probably look at a cabin class piston twin.

Keep in mind the more time it takes, or the more special tools required, it gets more difficult to find that kind of service at that price.

 

[Alexb2000]

Keep in mind the more time it takes, or the more special tools required, it gets more difficult to find that kind of service at that price.

So you're saying a turbine is worth at least a keg? Yup, I can see that.

 

[Kelvin]

For example, he takes his from NM to KA for maintenance, which has expenses in and of itself.

There is a reason for that trip...

 

[Ted]

So you're saying a turbine is worth at least a keg? Yup, I can see that.

I prefer working for a bottle of single malt. Or maybe a nice bottle of malbec.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

Exactly. Very neat planes, but I don't really see the point.

Trips to Europe or other places where you can't get 100LL.

Most airstrips in NE Canada and Greenland only have Jet-A.

Making that trip in a gasoline piston means you have to buy some drums of 100LL in advance and make sure they've arrived before you leave.

 

[Henning]

Trips to Europe or other places where you can't get 100LL.

Most airstrips in NE Canada and Greenland only have Jet-A.

Making that trip in a gasoline piston means you have to buy some drums of 100LL in advance and make sure they've arrived before you leave.

Where in or on the way to Europe can you not get 100LL?

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

I think the two planes are pretty different and it depends on what you want. Personally, I'd go for the Meridian/Jetprop. Much nicer cabin than a 210, and I expect significantly faster. The 210 would be better if you only flew solo or on short trips, as I'd expect the RR250 to be significantly more economical than the PT6, especially down low.

My main concern is range. The Meridian has a reputation for having a low useful load so you either have a short range or you can't have passengers. I'm looking for something that can carry 4 people, plus luggage, 1000~ NM. I was wondering if either the C210 or the Propjet with the -21 could do this.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

The -21 is 550shp, the -35 is 750shp.

AFAIK, the -35 is de-rated in the Propjet.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

Where in or on the way to Europe can you not get 100LL?

Arivat, Can
Churchill Can
Pangnirtung Can
Sisimuit, Gr
Nuuk, Gr

At least according to their websites, they don't keep 100LL in stock, you have to order it in advance in 55 gal drums.

 

[Alexb2000]

My main concern is range. The Meridian has a reputation for having a low useful load so you either have a short range or you can't have passengers. I'm looking for something that can carry 4 people, plus luggage, 1000~ NM. I was wondering if either the C210 or the Propjet with the -21 could do this.

I don't think the propjet can do it. You have about 1350 useful with 151 gals. of fuel or a full fuel capacity of about 350 lbs. It burns 34 GPH at say roughly 250 knots. Of course you can make a fuel stop when you are four up.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

If we are talking about operating in North America I'm not sure I the value is there with either of these birds for most missions. I have a friend who operates a very nice Jet Prop, his maintenance cost blow my mind. Of course if you can get an annual for a case of beer like many do here, then that wouldn't be a big deal. His bird is basically a 3-4 person plus baggage machine at most. One of the keys to the Jet Prop is that being a conversion not just anyone is familiar with them. For example, he takes his from NM to KA for maintenance, which has expenses in and of itself.

Depending on mission, I'd probably look at a cabin class piston twin.

I thought of that too, but that means you can't fly in areas where there's no 100LL.

 

[Henning]

My main concern is range. The Meridian has a reputation for having a low useful load so you either have a short range or you can't have passengers. I'm looking for something that can carry 4 people, plus luggage, 1000~ NM. I was wondering if either the C210 or the Propjet with the -21 could do this.

My 310 can.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

It burns 34 GPH

I thought the -21 burned less??

 

[Alexb2000]

I thought the -21 burned less??

http://www.jetprop.com/content/specification-and-performance-comparisons

I thought 34 was pretty good, a caravan is about 55.

 

[Sam D]

Capt -- If you'll excuse a slight diversion in the thread...how would the hourly operating costs for the P210 conversion or Meridian/Jet Prop compare with something like the TBM700/800 adjusted for the differences in cruise speed? Acquisition cost is higher. But once you have it, would the hourly costs continue to be higher?

 

[Sam D]

Capt -- If you'll excuse a slight diversion in the thread...how would the hourly operating costs for the P210 conversion or Meridian/Jet Prop compare with something like the TBM700/800 adjusted for the differences in cruise speed? Acquisition cost is higher. But once you have it, would the hourly costs continue to be higher?

Got my answer in Alex's link. Thanks. (Of course, they might be a little biased)

 

[Ted]

I thought of that too, but that means you can't fly in areas where there's no 100LL.

Do you intend on doing that with any regularity?

One could argue I've done as much 100LL flying around weird parts of the continent as most people are likely to, and I've never had an issue getting fuel. I do, of course, check first.

If you're looking for 1000 nm non-stop with 4 people and fuel (assuming you also have reserves) that can be a bit of a tall order, mainly on the 1000 nm range. If you looked at a piston twin that was outfitted with all the extra fuel tanks, it'd be doable. In the 310 we typically keep legs at 700 nm max, and that leaves a comfortable reserve. It also works out nicely because most of our trips divide into reasonable legs that way.

If we got the wing locker tanks, we could push the range up higher towards the 1000 nm range. I normally see this on 310Rs, which also usually have larger aux tanks (31ish gallons instead of 20), but then you lose some luggage space.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Talking to a surgeon who flew a Malibu conversion Jet prop into our field. 550shp, 33 gph, 270 knots, 170 gallons on the bird. so 5 hrs plus reserves maybe if pushing it.

If you put ferry tanks to move it over water that is another matter but doesn't seem like it would also except enough luggage and pax to do what you wish.

I wouldn't doubt that some take off from very long runways and push the gross weight a bit on such a flight.

I don't think the propjet can do it. You have about 1350 useful with 151 gals. of fuel or a full fuel capacity of about 350 lbs. It burns 34 GPH at say roughly 250 knots. Of course you can make a fuel stop when you are four up.

 

[bnt83]

Talking to a surgeon who flew a Malibu conversion Jet prop into our field. 550shp, 33 gph, 270 knots, 120 gallons on the bird. so 3 hrs plus reserves maybe 3.5 hrs if pushing it.

If you put ferry tanks to move it over water that is another matter but doesn't seem like it would also except enough luggage and pax to do what you wish.

I wouldn't doubt that some take off from very long runways and push the gross weight a bit on such a flight.

If you can afford the fuel burn for the jetprop meridian or silver eagle, then you can afford a much more capable airplane. $0.02

 

[Ted]

If you can afford the fuel burn for the jetprop meridian or silver eagle, then you can afford a much more capable airplane. $0.02

The fuel burn in $/hr for a Meridian or Silver Eagle isn't much different than on the 310, and $/mile would probably end up better, looking strictly at fuel. While we could afford to operate either plane (assuming we didn't have a catastrophic engine failure), affording to buy one is another story.

While I agree with the general idea, money is still equal to money, and depending on how you operate you may or may not be able to afford purchase cost even if you can afford operating cost.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

Capt -- If you'll excuse a slight diversion in the thread...how would the hourly operating costs for the P210 conversion or Meridian/Jet Prop compare with something like the TBM700/800 adjusted for the differences in cruise speed? Acquisition cost is higher. But once you have it, would the hourly costs continue to be higher?

I was under the impression that the TBM's operating costs were a lot higher than the -21 Propjet or 210 SE. Apparently, the numbers I was looking at were wrong. you might be on to something, the TBM's cost per mile may be close to those other planes.

BTW, nice to see someone from Petaluma. My brother used to live there. He worked at Graziano's and most of the other high-end restaurants in town. Have lots of fond memories of Petaluma.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

Do you intend on doing that with any regularity?

One could argue I've done as much 100LL flying around weird parts of the continent as most people are likely to, and I've never had an issue getting fuel. I do, of course, check first.

My intent would be to fly around as much of the globe as possible on the lowest budget possible. A PC-12 could easily do this but operating costs would be pretty high.

If you're looking for 1000 nm non-stop with 4 people and fuel (assuming you also have reserves) that can be a bit of a tall order, mainly on the 1000 nm range. If you looked at a piston twin that was outfitted with all the extra fuel tanks, it'd be doable. In the 310 we typically keep legs at 700 nm max, and that leaves a comfortable reserve. It also works out nicely because most of our trips divide into reasonable legs that way.

If we got the wing locker tanks, we could push the range up higher towards the 1000 nm range. I normally see this on 310Rs, which also usually have larger aux tanks (31ish gallons instead of 20), but then you lose some luggage space.

Any chance we could see a Diesel engine STC for the 310 in the near future?? That would solve the fuel availability problem and should be cheap to operate.

 

[Capt.Crash'n'Burn]

Talking to a surgeon who flew a Malibu conversion Jet prop into our field. 550shp, 33 gph, 270 knots, 120 gallons on the bird. so 3 hrs plus reserves maybe 3.5 hrs if pushing it.

Do you know if it was -21 or -35?

 

[Henning]

My intent would be to fly around as much of the globe as possible on the lowest budget possible. A PC-12 could easily do this but operating costs would be pretty high.



Any chance we could see a Diesel engine STC for the 310 in the near future?? That would solve the fuel availability problem and should be cheap to operate.

Define near and which engine.... For the 350hp 6 cyl, within a decade, yes, within half a decade, maybe. For the 230hp 4 cyl, it's ready to do right now, one of the older lighter ones would do ok with it and probably still make close to 180kts.

 

[Ted]

My intent would be to fly around as much of the globe as possible on the lowest budget possible. A PC-12 could easily do this but operating costs would be pretty high.

Any chance we could see a Diesel engine STC for the 310 in the near future?? That would solve the fuel availability problem and should be cheap to operate.

I think diesel would be the way to go, and that's been my mantra for a while now.

As far as anytime soon on STCs, I don't find that to be too likely. First we need to get a reliable diesel fleet (we're getting there, and TCM/Chinese support helps that), and then STCs will need to pop up. TCM might support STCs to replace 470/520/550 series with diesels to get the older style, highly PMA'd engines out of the market in favor of engines without PMAs.

We figured a diesel STC was far enough off to overhaul our 520s last year. I'd guess 10 years, if ever.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

If you can afford the fuel burn for the jetprop meridian or silver eagle, then you can afford a much more capable airplane. $0.02

What is a more capable airplane that runs JetA that he should consider?


diesel:

182 SMA diesel conversion 150 knots
DA42 twin diesel 178 knots for the new ones 167 knots for the older ones
Piper Cheyenne diesel twin 220 knots depending on which version

BTW there is at least one company that plans around the world junkets and has fuel for you and you fly more or less in a caravan with the group but have freedom to do side trips and meet up later with same...This is for avgas guys.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Do you know if it was -21 or -35?

I misquoted the fuel it was 150 gallons.

Check this out-
http://www.jetprop.com/content/specification-and-performance-comparisons

I do not know which but for some reason I am thinking PT6???

For the last 10-11 years SMA diesel conversion to the 182 have been sold for in the $200k range. Surely you can get a hold of one of those and it would be a terrific plane to do what you want at 150 knots. If you want to go around the world on a budget I do not know if there is a better aircraft for that unless you got a hold of a DA42 diesel twin. Both are significantly cheaper than a jetprop or Meridian.

 

[Sam D]

BTW, nice to see someone from Petaluma. My brother used to live there. He worked at Graziano's and most of the other high-end restaurants in town. Have lots of fond memories of Petaluma.

Graziano's recently changed hands with a change in format. I'm not sure how it wil go. Good restaurant scene here. Lots of choices for a smaller town. Come back any time!

Good luck with your search.

 

[Katamarino]

182 SMA diesel conversion 150 knots

I wish - having spent the last two months putting 90+ hours on one around Africa, 120 is more realistic. The original engine is no longer available, or very well supported; you can't even buy the oil for it now. The new version that's going into Cessna's new aircraft is only available to Cessna; not to anyone else for retrofit.

 

[bnt83]

182 SMA diesel conversion 150 knotsQUOTE]

Too good to be true

 

[Alexb2000]

182 SMA diesel conversion 150 knotsQUOTE]

Too good to be true

Brian-

Any idea how hard it would be to find service on an SMA diesel, have you dealt with them? I have a friend looking at the new Cessna 182 diesel, but one of my concerns is it will be dealer only for quite awhile and they will still be learning as they go, which could be "interesting" since I presume most of them don't know squat about diesels.