German guy
Cleared for Takeoff
Cessna Caravan with rocket pods:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/15/weekend-photo-lebanons-new-strike-aircraft/
Background:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ac-208-combat-caravan/
Cessna AC-208B - Lebanon’s New Strike Aircraft
- Thread starter German guy
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Cessna Caravan with rocket pods:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/15/weekend-photo-lebanons-new-strike-aircraft/
Background:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ac-208-combat-caravan/
Sure, why not. It's a good platform for them considering the range they operate at makes speed proportionately less valuable. They could pay 100 times more for a platform to take the missiles aloft, and it wouldn't buy them any significant advantage.
One thing Eisenhower warned us about in his Farewell to the Nation speech was to keep a reign on the military industrial complex. They are not there to provide the most efficient econonomical defense network, they are there to make the most money possible.
However we failed to heed that warning, choosing rather to favor a strong stock market. Now we have a bankrupt nation that survives only at the charity of those who believe in us continuing to trade goods for IOUs, to be left with a military equipped with all the greatest technology money can buy that can't defeat a Stone Age force with AK-47s, RPGs, and IEDs. You don't have to have the greatest weapons to be effective.
To top it off, we want to get rid of the A-10, the most effective aircraft we have in a CAS situation in the battles we currently fight.
These guys have the right idea about how to do this, cheap and effective.
One thing Eisenhower warned us about in his Farewell to the Nation speech was to keep a reign on the military industrial complex. They are not there to provide the most efficient econonomical defense network, they are there to make the most money possible.
However we failed to heed that warning, choosing rather to favor a strong stock market. Now we have a bankrupt nation that survives only at the charity of those who believe in us continuing to trade goods for IOUs, to be left with a military equipped with all the greatest technology money can buy that can't defeat a Stone Age force with AK-47s, RPGs, and IEDs. You don't have to have the greatest weapons to be effective.
To top it off, we want to get rid of the A-10, the most effective aircraft we have in a CAS situation in the battles we currently fight.
These guys have the right idea about how to do this, cheap and effective.
Warlock
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That's for sure a hellfire missile leaving the rail...two weeks ago the Army turned down an offer to transfer A-10's to them...reminiscent of the mid 80's when it almost happened and was written in to a Defense appropriations bill....
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Why? Why would the Army not want them, setting up their support infrastructure? I would think the personel would just make a lateral shift between branches no? Do the Marines want them?
LT4247
Pre-takeoff checklist
With Henning on this one....
If all the 208 has to do is loiter high and fire $105k Hellfire missles to the ground it makes a lot of sense. It has a human crew and only cost $1.9m which i like. No fan of drones. Appears cost effective to me but what do i know? Surely someone will point out how this will never work.
If all the 208 has to do is loiter high and fire $105k Hellfire missles to the ground it makes a lot of sense. It has a human crew and only cost $1.9m which i like. No fan of drones. Appears cost effective to me but what do i know? Surely someone will point out how this will never work.
With Henning on this one....
If all the 208 has to do is loiter high and fire $105k Hellfire missles to the ground it makes a lot of sense. It has a human crew and only cost $1.9m which i like. No fan of drones. Appears cost effective to me but what do i know? Surely someone will point out how this will never work.
Heck, put jump doors on both sides and you can have the rails reloaded in flight.
Warlock
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The rank and file would love it...not the civilian bean counters...
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2015/02/25/army-not-interested-in-taking-a-10-warthogs-from-air-force/
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Warlock
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Warlock
With Henning on this one....
If all the 208 has to do is loiter high and fire $105k Hellfire missles to the ground it makes a lot of sense. .
When I fired my last one the Rockwell rep said it was 35K...I sure they are higher but 105K seems high...
This is what I just do not get, why we have allowed it to come to this point.
Ike warned us and we cheered the flag and chanted "'Murica, Hell Yeah!" as it all happened.
We are not supposed to have a large permanent standing army for reasons, war becomes a saving force in the economy only being one. We don't develop a military with the intent of effectively defending the nation. We develop the military with the intent of generating the maximum economic profit. I think that's one of the driving forces behind the high soldier suicide level. They figure out they are killing for a lie.
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Velocity173
They can't afford the aircraft they already have. The last OH-58Ds were just flown out of Ft Rucker just last week. They're getting rid of TH-67s for LUH-72s to save money. Reducing the number of students going thru flight school as well.
Right now Army Aviation is tied up with its future vertical lift platform. Just no way they could take on the expense of the A-10. Not to mention they'd have to get around the Key West Agreement and the Pace-Finletter MOU. They'll always have to rely on other branches for FW CAS.
LT4247
Pre-takeoff checklist
Never fired one. Bet that a fun experience...
Did a quick search and find that as of Nov. 2014 Hellfire procurement was now $105k each. Maybe the links are wrong.
Did a quick search and find that as of Nov. 2014 Hellfire procurement was now $105k each. Maybe the links are wrong.
Got it, how about the Marines? I can't see giving up the platform, as a taxpayer it would **** me off. It's a very high value asset doing a high value job.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Marines have the AV-8B and then the F-35B, so I doubt they want anything to do with it.
Neither of them are of equal value for CAS due to considerably less time over the fight. The Harrier does have the auditory weapon though if he can hover over the opposing forces while our guys wearing ANR get up to kill them. The F-35 is to expensive to risk to a machine gun on the ground.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly. Army funding is in slash and burn mode right now. It's not like thy we're going to give the money the AF spent on A-10s to the Army with the aircraft.
3393RP
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3393RP
The Air Force and the Marines have made it clear they don't want the A-10, and that they intend to use the F-35 and F-35B for close air support. This has been the case for years.
The only group that wants the A-10 to remain in service are members of Congress whose states support the A-10 in some way.
Your assessment of the A-10 and its mission is not shared by those who currently use it.
red4golf
Line Up and Wait
The F-35 needs to show that it can hang while the A-10 is proven. This tanker loves some A-10s providing close support, especially if there is talk of Russia in the OPORD.... Just sayin'.
I know many Army pilots that are praying that the transfer happens. Admittedly, the Army hasn't been set up for these operations since about 1947 but we'll figure it out.
Also, to go back to Henning's first comment, we can't defeat a stone age enemy because we are held to a different standard than they are. We can't break their will if we can't put fear into them. That isn't the fault of the fighting force but of the rule makers.
I know many Army pilots that are praying that the transfer happens. Admittedly, the Army hasn't been set up for these operations since about 1947 but we'll figure it out.
Also, to go back to Henning's first comment, we can't defeat a stone age enemy because we are held to a different standard than they are. We can't break their will if we can't put fear into them. That isn't the fault of the fighting force but of the rule makers.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
All I can say is Duh. Extant and inexpensive aircraft can do the same missions as expensive drones at a fraction of the cost. I still can't believe they're trying to use drones at the border. Just technology looking for a problem to solve.
Why not? Why would the program budget not move with the program? Are we that totally useless now in our society we can't even figure out how to do something so simple? If the machine is that mired in stupidity that we can't effectively transfer a useful asset to someone who can use it, we really need to rethink our society from the base up. Basically America has become, "Of the Stupid, By the Stupid, and for the Greedy".
The only result our forces appear capable of at this point is generating a profit for the military industrial complex, getting young people killed, an facilitating mass extinction. Eisenhower was right, we let it get out of control, and it was all to make sure the Central Banking families had no competition, that was what we fought for in the Cold War.
Even worse, when we have a nuclear ship decommissioned, we pay millions of dollars to dispose of it. Last one just came out of an overhaul and refuel. Generators could be fitted and these ships run at a public profit producing electricity. Complete waste of billions of dollars.
Throw away lives, throw away money, that's all our military is capable of at this point.
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Bingo!
Now why is that? Why do we restrain ourselves from outright warfare? Because morally we sense that we are in the wrong here. Our military is spreading suffering not in a just cause, but to secure the very economic interests that are destroying our society as well. At the heart of this entire conflict, we are in the wrong, and our conscience realizes it, but our desire for a soft life, plus the patriotic propaganda put out by the same people that profit of war, makes us ignore the fact that we suport evil.I have a feeling a lot of our soldiers ending their own lives have come to this realization understanding they have been duped into damning themselves for a very ignoble cause.
Warlock
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Warlock
22 Veterans a day commit suicide in this country...not sure its this but I do believe its a contributing factor for some...wish it were not the case...Veterans lives matter but that never makes the press....
It's not all one factor, nothing is. The sad thing is there are so many factors involved.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
You aren't getting it. To keep the program going requires a LOT of money to support the aging airframe. Money is tight in the DoD right now. The two services hit hardest by the budget crunch are the USAF and the Army, with the Marines a close third (although they never compared to the budget size of the first two). The Air Force wants to get rid of the A-10 because they don't want to keep paying for it as their budget gets really right, so it isn't like they are going to give that funding line to the Army. In that sense, the DoD wants to stop the bleeding, not shift it from one arm to the other.
How many F-35s would it cost to renovate the fleet? That's the problem I'm pointing at. We are prioritizing budgets to weapons platforms that less effective in the roll, and so expensive we won't want to put them in harms way in a situation where their high cost, advance technology, serves no benefit.
Question for you, you might know this:
What is the sortie ratio between current tech and last tech platforms. Like F-15 sorties vs F-22 sorties, B-52 v B-2 type of thing?
It makes no sense to me to risk an asset that is at least 20 times the price, has no tactical advantage (and no 30mm gun that the pilots manage to point very accurately), and a lower factor for actual combat survivability.
If we are buying F-35s instead of providing the A-10 with the updates and service required to keep it mission capable, then I think we are spending the money in the wrong place. Furthermore, I take it as evidence of high level corruption in the military, because the decission ****s the grunt. When a General worries more about what is best for his industrial contractors than what is best for his troops, that sits very, very, wrong with me.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with that. Unfortunately, it isn't the decision that was made by DoD leadership and Congress.
You have to remember that the F-35 equals more jobs and cash infusion in local economies than keeping the A-10 program alive.
You hit the nail on the head with the Eisenhower quote. We have become exactly what he warned about. Defending the country has become a secondary objective of almost every acquisition decision.
At what cost? What else could we build with the difference?
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Henning, for shame! Your far too sensible! What does one F 35 cost? What does one warthog cost? Why was the hog so successful? Heavily armored, Gatling gun, would slow down to see clearly what to strike, excellent tank killer, on and on. The F35 is probably the worst replacement ! It a hybrid that that can't even make roll call, just one cost overrun after the other, the most expensive plane ever built! The A 10 saved many combat troops and WAS VERY popular with the grunts. Many articles stating this. The armchair commandos like to gloss over what Eisenhower said but he was right on target and it all came true. The F35 is a classic example!
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Velocity173
A crap load of A-29s or AT-6s would be better. The last two wars those two types of aircraft would have worked perfectly in conjunction with AH-64s and AH-1s. Outside of the first few months of OIF and OEF, everything was soft targets. You don't need a sledge hammer when a pick hammer will do fine...and at a much reduced cost.
Still gotta keep your high end F-15s and F-18s and even F-35s and F-22s for a formidable ADA / intercept aircraft foe. Like the article suggests, an armed turboprop works good in a low ADA threat enviroment. You try it where CAP or serious ADA exists and those guys will eat a C208 or even an AT-6 / A-29 for lunch.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
If you've watched bob Hoover in the shrike or if you've flown a shrike, ( I have several times) I always wondered why it wasn't used for ground support or as a FAC plane. Real nice vis, maneuverable for sure, lands , takes off short, on and on, especially during Vietnam it seems it would have been less expensive and very effective for a series of roles. The 1000 commander would work right now!
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Did the cost of an F-35 finally exceed the cost of an F-22? I remember when they shorted the F-22 saying the F-35 was going to do just as well at half the cost.
When are we going to figure out that we cannot give the financial markets stewardship of our economy? There has been no point in history where they have ever represented the interests of the greater society. What we have now is the direct descendants of European Nobility directing our econonomical and society in their personal interests.
We kicked em out once, we can do it again, and we can do it peacefully by competing them into irrelevance through instituting modern levels of efficiency and following the lead of nature and getting multiple values from every process.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/urban-agriculture-and-energy/x/10003213.
If we scrapped the F-35 program, rehab the A-10s, how many of these programs do you think we would have the resources freed up to build? Now industry is taking that same money they were using to build things that we have to kill our children to make valuable, and use it to create a system that negates the need for advanced weaponry.
All the wars that have been fought in all of modern history have been fought at the behest of these families in the endeavor to establish and maintain their control over the wealth of the world. When will we choose to quit making the same mistakes, so we can finally advance? Will we manage before extinction? The choice is ours.
When are we going to figure out that we cannot give the financial markets stewardship of our economy?
There has been no point in history where they have ever represented the interests of the greater society. What we have now is the direct descendants of European Nobility directing our econonomical and society in their personal interests.We kicked em out once, we can do it again, and we can do it peacefully by competing them into irrelevance through instituting modern levels of efficiency and following the lead of nature and getting multiple values from every process.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/urban-agriculture-and-energy/x/10003213.
If we scrapped the F-35 program, rehab the A-10s, how many of these programs do you think we would have the resources freed up to build? Now industry is taking that same money they were using to build things that we have to kill our children to make valuable, and use it to create a system that negates the need for advanced weaponry.
All the wars that have been fought in all of modern history have been fought at the behest of these families in the endeavor to establish and maintain their control over the wealth of the world. When will we choose to quit making the same mistakes, so we can finally advance? Will we manage before extinction?
The choice is ours.
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Velocity173
Jimmy cooper
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What I've read states that the F35 will be the most expensive plane ever built, bar none. It will finally exceed one trillion dollars which is why many other country's have either refused or drastically cut their commitment to the aircraft. This means that we will pay even more for ours. It's a real shame. Idiotic waste of money as is the mighty Wurlitzer, the osprey.Did the cost of an F-35 finally exceed the cost of an F-22? I remember when they shorted the F-22 saying the F-35 was going to do just as well at half the cost.
When are we going to figure out that we cannot give the financial markets stewardship of our economy?
We kicked em out once, we can do it again, and we can do it peacefully by competing them into irrelevance through instituting modern levels of efficiency and following the lead of nature and getting multiple values from every process.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/urban-agriculture-and-energy/x/10003213.
If we scrapped the F-35 program, rehab the A-10s, how many of these programs do you think we would have the resources freed up to build? Now industry is taking that same money they were using to build things that we have to kill our children to make valuable, and use it to create a system that negates the need for advanced weaponry.
All the wars that have been fought in all of modern history have been fought at the behest of these families in the endeavor to establish and maintain their control over the wealth of the world. When will we choose to quit making the same mistakes, so we can finally advance? Will we manage before extinction?
It really doesn't take a trillion dollar plane to meet realistic needs.
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
Apropos of nothing...
Nauga,
and weapons for warfighters, not what looks cool on the interwebs
Nauga,
and weapons for warfighters, not what looks cool on the interwebs