Cessna 310 doing aerobatics?

woodstock

woodstock

Final Approach
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questions..

I went to dinner with some friends last night, and one member of their party mentioned that the company he works for will charter a plane for travel sometimes. they aren't big enough for a corporate aircraft so when they need to travel they hire a small outfit which flies 310s.

he told me once this guy did a loop-de-loop for them (not sure if the plane was full - there could have been 6 people total or just 2-3, I don't know. my guess/HOPE is just the two of them).

what I'd like to know is:

1. under part 35, can you do this??
2. can a 310 do this? apparently it CAN, he DID, but when thinking of aerobatic planes the first one that comes to mind isn't a 310.
3. which type of loop is more stressful on the aircraft - this guy went straight up, and over backwards, and came around that way, as opposed to diving down and then going inverted. not sure the names of these loops.

thanks...

btw, I don't even know this guy's last name let alone the company he works for or even the charter aircraft company name either. so I'm not ratting anyone out. I did ask him though if the pilot was still alive.
 
woodstock said:
he told me once this guy did a loop-de-loop for them (not sure if the plane was full - there could have been 6 people total or just 2-3, I don't know. my guess/HOPE is just the two of them).

what I'd like to know is:

1. under part 35, can you do this??
Click to expand...

Sure you can. - The problem is doing so is not in compliance with any FARs. :rolleyes:

woodstock said:
2. can a 310 do this? apparently it CAN, he DID, but when thinking of aerobatic planes the first one that comes to mind isn't a 310.
Click to expand...

Being that Tex Johnston barrel rolled the Boeing Dash 80, the 707 prototype, I would say yes, it can be done.
http://www.historylink.org/output.cfm?file_id=390
 
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Beth:

Loops and rolls can be down with slight positive g's through the maneuver if done correctly; however, there is a great deal of skill needed and if one small thing goes wrong, one can over stress the airframe--and the results of that stress may not be immediately noticeable.

Had someone offer to do these maneuvers in my plane--he was bragging about how good he was. He kind of shut up when I told him he could purchase the plane from me or pay for a full tear down inspection and recertification afterwords.

BTW, I have a video of Tex Johnon doing a roll in a 707! If anyone would like to see it, send me an e-mail or a place I can post it. It's 3 megs.

Dave
 
woodstock said:
what I'd like to know is:

1. under part 35, can you do this??
2. can a 310 do this? apparently it CAN, he DID, but when thinking of aerobatic planes the first one that comes to mind isn't a 310.
3. which type of loop is more stressful on the aircraft - this guy went straight up, and over backwards, and came around that way, as opposed to diving down and then going inverted. not sure the names of these loops.
Click to expand...

What I'd like to know is:
4. why would he do something like that? If it were my friend chartering from this bozo I'd recommend he find someone else to ride with.
 
:blowingkisses:
gibbons said:
What I'd like to know is:
4. why would he do something like that? If it were my friend chartering from this bozo I'd recommend he find someone else to ride with.
Click to expand...

yeah, I did. I told him he was pushing the envelope.
 
mikea said:
Being that Tex Johnston rolled the Boeing Dash 80, the 707 prototype. I would say yes, it can be done.
Click to expand...

You know, I recall there being a Northwest 757 at Oshkosh in 1987 (my first ever trip there, with my dad) piloted by one of their pilots, a female, who was also an aerobatic performer. I thought it was just my warped memory that she'd rolled it after a speed fly-by, but maybe not? Anyone else remember that?

Of course, I was a lot smaller then so maybe it was me that rolled after the 757 went past right in front of us... CAUTION WAKE TURBULENCE! :rofl:
 
Was that Julie Clark? While she would be perfectly capable of doing such a thing, I think that would have been grounds for NW to dismiss her if she did such a thing. While I wasn't there and did not witness it, I am pretty confident that she did not roll the 757.
 
How well do you know this friend? Maybe he could be a little mistaken.
 
robsingles said:
How well do you know this friend? Maybe he could be a little mistaken.
Click to expand...

brother of friend's wife - that much - as in, saw him at the wedding and likely a few things before that. anything is possible - including he "thought" they looped. we didn't go into very much, he kept digging a hole and I kept shooting him incredulous looks (and my friend was laughing along with it all too). so this could be an academic exercise too.

he sounded like he knew what he was talking about a little bit, he said the guy mentioned it once but said "I don't have parachutes here for us so we can't do it yet" and the next time he showed up with them... and he said the guy was more concerned about stalling it than anything (inside loop - pull yoke back and go over...)
 
Here is a link to the 707 roll, if it will save Dave some bandwidth: (just tested, it works....2Mb)
http://www.orizzle.com/htm/v/094.htm

This may aggravate people but Tex Johnson is no hero of mine because of this feat. He may have been a great guy, and a pilot that I could only aspire to but that was a 'stunt'. And now we have a 310 pilot claiming to do the same. My guess (and hope) is this pilot is shooting his mouth off to impress someone. If I'm wrong I hope he doesn't kill someone else, or total a perfectly good 310. We had a Bonanza pilot (a pt 135 airplane) do that here Alpine Tx, (in the last 10 yrs look it up), the mechanic watched him repeat what he had been bragging to everyone about, the last time he performed it (he was warming it up to facilitate an oil change) right down the runway below 100' and ....pulled instead of a push.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
And now we have a 310 pilot claiming to do the same....
Click to expand...
Dave,
No, what the 310 pilot claims to have done is much worse. Rolling an airplane like a 310 is one thing, but looping it is quite another.
 
hey guys - the guy I talked to was not a pilot, he was the passenger. just to clear that up.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
by 'the same', I meant a stunt.
point noted, Chip.
Click to expand...

And of course there's always the vast and yet minute difference between calculated maneuvers, easily and safely accomplished by highly practiced, experienced pilots (Tex's <1 G roll) and meant to impress business associates v. D_, BS, impulsive and poorly calculated showboating that often over stresses an airframe, or worse.

Both classified into the nebulous realm of "stunts".
 
woodstock said:
questions..

I went to dinner with some friends last night, and one member of their party mentioned that the company he works for will charter a plane for travel sometimes. they aren't big enough for a corporate aircraft so when they need to travel they hire a small outfit which flies 310s.

he told me once this guy did a loop-de-loop for them (not sure if the plane was full - there could have been 6 people total or just 2-3, I don't know. my guess/HOPE is just the two of them).

what I'd like to know is:

1. under part 35, can you do this??
2. can a 310 do this? apparently it CAN, he DID, but when thinking of aerobatic planes the first one that comes to mind isn't a 310.
3. which type of loop is more stressful on the aircraft - this guy went straight up, and over backwards, and came around that way, as opposed to diving down and then going inverted. not sure the names of these loops.

thanks...

btw, I don't even know this guy's last name let alone the company he works for or even the charter aircraft company name either. so I'm not ratting anyone out. I did ask him though if the pilot was still alive.
Click to expand...

Under Pt 135, many rules have beem broken, too many to start to list.

Will a 310 do a loop. I know the B model will....don't ask.

A loop performed properly will pull 3gs. That's well within the 3.8 of normal catagory and well below certification test values. The thing is if things go wrong, in a 310 load limits may reach critical levels if you weren't high enough when you started. Another issue is the weight and CG envelope needs to be developed for aerobatic flight. If you know what you're doing, it is not a particularly dangerous manuver, but if you got called to the carpet on it, you better have all your answers straight and good. As far as doing it with pax, the pax would have to pay me about $100,000 to take that kind of professional risk. If I'm flying someone privtately in their plane, that's one thing, paying pax on a charter op is another.

The other manuver I believe you were refering to is a Split S, this is a lot easier to gain a bunch of energy with. A loop starts by scrubbing energy to very low energy. A split S can start high energy and gain from there.

gibbons said:
What I'd like to know is:
4. why would he do something like that? If it were my friend chartering from this bozo I'd recommend he find someone else to ride with.
Click to expand...

Usually works the other way around, the pax talk the pilot into it.
 
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Henning said:
A loop performed properly will pull 3gs.
Click to expand...
And a hacked loop can involve as little as 2.5g. It wouldn't be pretty, and you'd probably lose a little altitude, say 200-300 feet, but it wouldn't necessarily rip the wings off.
 
While Bob Hoover used to do an extensive aerobatic show in a light twin, it's not for anyone short of that skill level, and the airplane must undergo a detailed structural inspection before it's used again for any other purpose. We've had trouble for years with folks attempting aerobatics in Grummans, and we're paying the price for it -- we've found a correlation between past ownership by those known to pull that sort of stunt and cracking in the horizontal tail spar attachment points (and it don't get much more serious than that).
 
Ken Ibold said:
And a hacked loop can involve as little as 2.5g. It wouldn't be pretty, and you'd probably lose a little altitude, say 200-300 feet, but it wouldn't necessarily rip the wings off.
Click to expand...

I think that with enough power for the weight you could do a (ugly) loop with far less g force than that.

Virtually any plane can be looped with the possible exception of something with very high drag and low power. As pointed out already, done properly it's not much more stressful on the airframe than a steep turn, but things can get out of hand quickly, especially with a slippery airframe. Coming downhill on the backside, you are accelerating at something close to 10 Kt/second (or more if you leave the power on) so it doesn't take long to put on a lot of speed. And that speed lengthens the time required for the pullout during which you are piling on more speed.
 
lancefisher said:
Virtually any plane can be looped with the possible exception of something with very high drag and low power.
Click to expand...
Having watched Roger Lehnert loop a stock J-3 Cub, even that isn't true. Low wing loading can obviate the need for power. Nevertheless, it is a real bad idea to try to loop any plane not approved for loops.
 
Ron Levy said:
While Bob Hoover used to do an extensive aerobatic show in a light twin, it's not for anyone short of that skill level,
Click to expand...

While reinforcement of that point is probably not required I submit the following anyway...

Len
 
First, let me state this is just one man’s opinion. However I think the pilot should be on the ground for risking the lives of other onboard and those on the ground by pulling this stunt. When the aircraft was new off the assembly line it was able to pull the g-loads as designed, but over the years rivets get loose, corrosion is every where taking away strength, bolt holes are elongated, and cables get stretched. So the pilot just became a test pilot willing to risk everyone’s life for his ego with unknown loads or weights on the aircraft. I would never want to fly with this guy if he takes chances like this to impress someone.

Hate to say it, but its guy’s like this I have to pick up in a body bag at crash sites then try and explain to the families why it happed. Let’s just say your pilot friend was lucky, but luck has no place in aviation. I wonder if the next pilot will be so lucky after the aircraft was over stressed?

Stache
 
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