Cessna 310/320 Why not?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by MitchB, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If I'm not mistaken, that should be amended to your parent's money, not that there is the least bit wrong with that. If I am in error I would be glad of the correction.
     
  2. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    Well, right now it is my parents money. I do as much as I can to avert the expenses however I was offered a CFI job and it will be my money come mid october.
     
  3. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The catch is that for a number of people "It costs what it costs" doesn't work due to their finances. Unless you're Bill Gates, at the end of the day you probably do have a limit on your spending.

    If I bought an MU-2, I really wouldn't be able to afford it.

    But you're right - when all is said and done, you will have one of the best 172s around. And when all is said and done with the 310, it will be an excellent example (even moreso than it already is).
     
  4. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You are correct, the majority are not going to see my results because they are of the 80% who are mechanically inept. I have never promised anyone this cost. However, I do not assume that everyone is mechanically inept. I know there are plenty of people who operate exactly as I do with similar numbers. We do our own work and we don't hold ourselves hostage to dogmatic operating stupidities. The 20% that have the ability and knowledge should understand that yes, there are alternate methods of compliance than throwing thousands of dollars out the window.
     
  5. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do everything I want to in one year. The really big expense (new engine, prop) probably wont be for another 2 years. The Bush conversions STC permits me a Lycoming O360A1A with a CS prop - what I would like to do is get the engine, get an MT three bladed prop and then get an STC to inject the engine. Then install GAMIs and operate LOP. I figure that whole mess will easily be 35k

    Next year I intend on installing flint tip tanks, an Aspen PFD, Stec AP, and redoing all of the glass. IF I have anything left over it will be put into the engine/prop for the next year.
     
  6. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Your parents made a very wise investment in your career as a pilot and you experience during college. You should see abound getting your A&P while you're at school and really parlay yourself. You can graduate with your own flight school and maint business.
     
  7. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    And you'll still be flying a 120kt cessna 172.

    If you're going to spend all that money, why not sell the durn thing, add the cash you were going to spend and buy an M20J? 165kts on 10gph... 64 gallon tanks...
     
  8. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Why would you put the price of an Arrow to expand your fleet into a 172?
     
  9. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    Because I love my 172, and I don't think I could ever sell it. If I buy another airplane, then I would just have to pay for 2.
     
  10. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I don't go places THAT often. I have maybe 5 or 6 big trips a year. Plus, the slower the plane the more time I get to fly!
     
  11. CFI-Guy

    CFI-Guy Pre-Flight

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    Yup....I use to kid that the best way to build cross country time was in a Cub :rofl:
     
  12. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    and most likely a cub or something of the same type will be my next airplane - Cheap and fun flying.

    Perhaps a Luscombe.
     
  13. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I'm pretty sure I will be able to afford A cub and a skyhawk. Plus the cub makes me appreciate the 115-120 knots the skyhawk will do.
     
  14. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You'll be a CFI & A&P, you will be generating income from 2 instead of one. You have a tool to use to your future, figure out how to make best use of it.
     
  15. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'd agree with getting your A&P. I'm thinking about doing it as well.
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What are you flying aspirations?
     
  17. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I third Hennings suggestion. I would like to do it.
     
  18. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You should Ted. With your engineering background you'd be a natural. And given the small fleet of twins you run, I imagine it would save you some serious money as well.
     
  19. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    CFI, maybe eventually an airline pilot. I would take a corporate gig in a heartbeat if it was presented, however the CFI job I was offered is impossible to pass up.
     
  20. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's really amazing those nickels and dimes you save by doing things early because you caught them, and doing them yourself adds up. There's a lot of small simple time consuming jobs that you can save a heck ofa lot of money. Remember, a day spent tinkering on the plane is typically worth $1000 in the shop. The majority of repairs are little things.
     
  21. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    Dooo eet!
     
  22. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I have a mechanic that will let me work on the plane. I change my own oil, do owner assisted annuals, and do the grunt work whenever it is something big that needs done. It does save a significant amount of money.
     
  23. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    To most that read any of your postings that's very obvious.
     
  24. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    They are to be found everywhere. Mechanics are typically a friendly bunch and like fixing crap and if you're good company are perfectly willing to let you work along side and give you supervision and a sign off for a hand here or hold a light there for a minute. I picked up 2 jobs that way in fact, the first I was still a student pilot. I was hanging out in the CRS hangar with the owner/cert holder/mechanic, (all 2nd gen on location, pops still stops in as do all the old QBs.) asking him some questions and handing him the next tool he needs and backing through studs when he asked "You want a job?" He heavily subsidized my first 2 years of ownership even when I was part time. He also was my introduction to a lot of great and knowledgable old guys.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  25. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    That's provided that I did my own MX, which would be the reason for getting my A&P. At the moment I can do anything I want to myself on the planes under supervision. Most of it I choose not to do given other time constraints I have. However, once the Aztec sells and with a few other things that I'm figuring on, it may prove to start making more sense.
     
  26. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    And therein lies the key difference in our operating costs. You are paying for time of not doing work. I prefer to make the time to do the work.
     
  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    It also lies in actually including the full spectrum of costs, rather than the costs that are convenient to include...
     
  28. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    It really makes you stand out, esp. to a smaller company or private aircraft owner.
     
  29. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Search this board where I ever claimed I did it any other way? I have always said, if you're willing and able to do the work, this is what you can get. Over 20 years I've observed that about 20% are competent and willing to do the labor to save the money and/or achieve the higher quality product. They were all new once. I got lucky and stumbled into a great nest in Long Beach. I'm just trying to pass on some useful things learned to the willing and able, FMD, I'm the bad guy.:rolleyes2:
     
  30. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    You're overestimating the time that "other people" have to tinker on their airplanes. Other people also have a realistic opinion of their own abilities and would rather hire someone with more expertise.
     
  31. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    This just floors me about people in general, not just pilots.

    If you're going to work everyday to make a wage and have no idea if it's doing you any good, in other words, keeping score... why do it?

    Money is a tool traded for skill and work. You can either learn to use the tool properly or...

    Dunno. Drives me nuts.

    But I know there's folk who don't pay attention or don't care. Had a friend living in our house for a while who refused to set or keep a budget and yet was always complaining that he was broke.

    Yeah, that three DVD's you bought on a "good sale" wiped out your discretionary funds, and I could see that in my head. Didn't need to even write it down.

    (He was really broke or he wouldn't have been living at our house. We only asked that he keep a job and show us a budget and plan for moving out. He never did. He moved out without a plan after the tension got too high for him and then ended up homeless again which is where he was when he came to stay with us...)

    I'm sure we're all paying some sort of government funds to him now. And he can't say no one ever showed him an example of a simple budget or how to do one, because "budget 101" was a requirement of living under my roof.

    You can lead a horse to water...
     
  32. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Like most who specialize in the financial side of the aviation business, a high percentage of my engagements since 4Q2008 have been with lenders who are trying to get out of the trap. It has been a bloodbath for many, as evidenced by a very nice G-2B that was foreclosed by an Oklahoma bank with $2.5 mil owing and an appraised value of $600,000 that was roughly equivalent to unused engine time. The real estate guy who owned the plane was TU and the bank's deficiency judgement of $1.9 mil plus interest, penalties, acceleration and other loan provisions was essentially worthless. When asked if I could help, I had no good answers. The bank eventually sold the airplane for $475,000.

    Within the last six months the president of one of the largest aircraft lending banks in Texas told me that the bank's entire aircraft portfolio was under water with respect to loan to value ratio, and that they "had to do something different" if they wanted to continue in that business. The bank is located in one of the wealthiest areas of Dallas, and many customers are airplane owners or potential buyers. The bank values the relationships but the regulators are holding their feet to the fire. I know that some of the loans have been moved to other lenders, but don't know the details.

    Lenders have obviously changed their underwriting and collateral requirements since the crash, and are considering numerous alternatives in addition to the larger down payment and increased credit-worthiness of borrowers that has been initiated thus far.

    Many changes to loan terms have and are been considered, including the requirement that borrowers periodically escrow engine reserves (with the bank or through an engine life program) and other onerous measures that (IMO) would pretty much finish off the wounded-duck used GA market.

    As a result of this increased focus, I developed a 1.5-day seminar program for loan officers and board members. A key element of the program is to help them to better understand the ongoing financial ramifications of aircraft ownership, as well as the limitations of an appraisal at the time of purchase.

    One of the tools for these discussions is the preparation of a realistic budget for estimated ownership and operation of the aircraft over an assumed ownership period (we use six years to be consistent with tax depreciation) as well as a range of potential resale values at the end of the ownership period. This full ownership-cycle analysis addresses some of the most-frequent traps for both the owner and the bank (fast depreciation vs. slow amortization) as well as some of the OWT's (that owners can make money from 135 leasebacks).

    The program has been well-received, and having now completed several of the seminars, I have determined that I don't want to travel all over the country doing them, especially during the good months for flying and golf.

    But having now seen some of what's happening behind the curtain, I will be interested to see how the banks react to better protect themselves in the future. I think the best we can hope for is no further change in lending requirements, and the worst is much much worse.



     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  33. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I have never debated that reality for the majority of people and have been known to steer them away from a 310 if their expectations of performance were too high for economical operation. Then I recommend just biting the bullet and running a 421 at 195-210ktas hard LOP; it'll give them better value for about the same overall cost of running a T-310R (or any other, it's just the most money hungry model because of most systems/capability)at those speeds and you get the Wide Oval, pressurization, hot glass, and a lav, just pull back the props and mixture.
     
  34. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I don't think you got my point. People who can't afford a 310 without doing a lot of maintenance themselves aren't going to be able to afford a 421.
     
  35. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No, you fail to get my point, I'm not addressing those people, get it? I'm addressing people like the OP who have the desire to spend their own money on what they want and have the time and wherewithal to actually accomplish what others can't. I don't look at it from an investment bankers perspective and neither did he nor did he appreciate being condescended to by Wayne because he didn't share his investment bankers perspective. The fact that investment bankers are pretty much who I blame for the current miserable condition of the world's economy, it's no wonder Wayne and I don't see eye to eye on subjects that relate to money and value because he values money above all else. You and Ted have a different perspective in that you also are spending other peoples money, you for your boss, Ted for his foundation, and you guard that money best that you can, but you guard it out of loyalty to the people who entrusted it to you rather than loyalty to money. The OP and I are different, we spend our own money, we only need to be loyal to our wishes and desires. We don't value money for beyond what it will do for us and the only questions we ask are "Do I want it?" and "Do I have the money/time?" If we can answer yes to both, we're happy and good to go.
     
  36. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    It's presumptuous for you to think you know about anyone's "philosophy" but your own. I actually agree with Wayne's points more often than yours when the discussion is about cost and airplanes.
     
  37. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'm not sure the OP has stated that he wants to do his own work or is able...

    And if you think that I don't have cost concerns since I'm spending a non-profit's money, well, you are at best ignorant. You know absolutely nothing about the workings of my non-profit.
     
  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yep...
     
  39. MitchB

    MitchB Filing Flight Plan

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    It may be presumptuous, but in my case he's spot on.

    I can't fathom the struggle here to define (pigeon hole) an airplane by cost or cost per hour. I understand the need from a corporate ownership criterea - they live by cost vs. profit.
    But that's not me.

    I too very much enjoy caring for my toys. None of which do I define by practicality.
    I have no problem with some pilots treating an airplane like a tool. You grab it to accomplish a task, use it (hopefully not abuse it) put it back and walk away. That's fine and probably normal for those using a tool they did not buy with their own money.

    Buying / owning an airplane will be a joyful experience for me or I won't do it. I enjoy fixing the niggles. How many of you bean counters factor washing/waxing the airplane? I'd never pay for that... If a particular owner decides he doesn't have time to do those items, HIS cost goes up - not the airplane's.

    If the FAA suddenly said owners are not allowed to touch their own A/C - only A/Ps, I'd never buy.

    Every ownership - be it personal or corporate - will be different in terms of cost. Be it cost per flight hour, cost per year, (I like to think of cost per mile - which makes a 310 pretty economical for what it is, if flown conservatively) or however any one person cares to define it.

    Why is that so damn contentious? Why argue with an owner who says his cost is different?

    Be happy. :idea: It's Friday. Go flying...
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  40. cirrusmx

    cirrusmx Line Up and Wait

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    Twins are the real man airplane.