cellphones in flight

I usually cruise at 8-9K. When I take a look at my phone it's "No Service".
That might be a problem.
 
Paul Allen said:
I usually cruise at 8-9K. When I take a look at my phone it's "No Service".
That might be a problem.

I noticed the same thing. I can't say that I never would use the cellphone in flight, but I will say that I can't ever use my cellphone in flight.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Nothing that I'm aware of -- I usually forget and leave mine on.

The cell phone prohibition is from the FCC.

More specifically it is from PART22 and covers phones that operate in the 800MHz band. Those phones that operate in the PCS band of 1.9GHz are covered by Part 24 which has no language concerning a ban while in flight.

However as noted many phones have a hard time working while in flight. This is due to system design considerations where antennas may be downtilted. Gennerally about 3 degrees but I have seen them with downtilts of much greater values.
 
At worst I get a temporary beat frequency in the headset ..."Bedeep, bedeep, bedeep, etc."
Mine only works below 1000'agl; occasionally below 2000'agl, so that means vmc only for me; I'm too busy to mess with it when imc because at that altitude you're on an approach probably (but I would in an emergency).
Plus, there is always that scare factor (is any of it real?) that they hang over you re interfering with nav equipment.
 
I have Cingular and it will work up to 1500'AGL, I have Pilot MyCast weather and I use the weather radar while in flight. I don't have the extra money for a Garmin 396, but its better than nothing.
 
Not that I know. Or have ever tried. My phone with Tmobile I hear is good up to about 5000' AGL. :yes:
 
Not that I've ever 'tried' but I've seen both Cingular GSM and Verizon phones work up at 9500' out here in CA. They're picky at that altitude and at 200mph. However, just position it close to the window, and give it a shot. Everyonce in a while they'll need to be nudged or moved so that you get your signal back. :)
 
AirBaker said:
Not that I've ever 'tried' but I've seen both Cingular GSM and Verizon phones work up at 9500' out here in CA. They're picky at that altitude and at 200mph. However, just position it close to the window, and give it a shot. Everyonce in a while they'll need to be nudged or moved so that you get your signal back. :)
I think in mountainous areas you're more likely to get reception at altitude. After all if they have service at 7000' in Big Bear, one would expect your phone to work when flying nearby.
 
On my flight back to WV I was at 4500 AGL (over OH) and my phone worked fine when I was near cities that had service. The problem was that I would blow through the areas so fast that I only had service for short periods of time.

What I found works well for me is to use text messaging. If my phone didn't have service it would queue the message until it could send it. My wife and I kept in touch that way and it worked nicely.
 
jkaduk said:
I think in mountainous areas you're more likely to get reception at altitude. After all if they have service at 7000' in Big Bear, one would expect your phone to work when flying nearby.

That could be. But you might also only pick up a few cells instead of the entire central valley, which could help with the reception in backward way.
 
Our Nextels work up to between 3500' and 4000' depending on where you are in the region. Haven't tested them with any x-cntry stuff yet but it's coming. Nice thing about the Nextel is the two-way radio but with my wife with me it doesn't do much good since the intercom is much more convenient! :redface:

She does most of the phone work during flight, though. I fly, she talks. Go figure.
 
Interestingly, cell phone use in flight is allowed in Canada - the majors don't allow it as a matter of policy but there is no prohibition for small planes.
 
I have used my Alltel phone up to about 3500', above that I loose service. By-the-way, does anyone personally know of charges being brought against a person from using a cell phone in the air? I have heard of a story several years ago but could never confirm it.
 
I think they'd have a hard time rounding up the resources to catch ya. I suppose if you could manage to keep a call all the way from San Jose to San Diego.

My guess is that if you use a non-pilot's phone, it would be hard to prove. :)
 
They can effect your radios. When a cell phone rings its in the process of picking a frequecny to operate on. While its doing this its kicking out some power. If it happens to pick a frequency that is close to the ones on your radio you may hear some clicking, or buzzing. I have in fact missed 2 clearances on the ground in my carrer due to this, once in a 172 and another time in the Learjet. You can actually hear the phone ring in your headseat, buzz and crackle if a passegner in the back is getting a call.

You can also experiment with this another way. With your avionics turned on and your nav radios on with the CDI in LOC mode have some one call your phone and hole it up to the instrument as it rings and watch the needles jump! It can be an eye opener. Now will a ringing phone in the back of a 737 screw things up....probalby not. But if everyones phone in 1st class is ringing on the push back from the gate, the crew could miss a hold short clearance.....
 
I was on a commercial flight once when the captain came on during cruise and asked everyone to check their phones because someone's was on.
 
Bones said:
They can effect your radios. When a cell phone rings its in the process of picking a frequecny to operate on. While its doing this its kicking out some power. If it happens to pick a frequency that is close to the ones on your radio you may hear some clicking, or buzzing. I have in fact missed 2 clearances on the ground in my carrer due to this, once in a 172 and another time in the Learjet. You can actually hear the phone ring in your headseat, buzz and crackle if a passegner in the back is getting a call.

You can also experiment with this another way. With your avionics turned on and your nav radios on with the CDI in LOC mode have some one call your phone and hole it up to the instrument as it rings and watch the needles jump! It can be an eye opener. Now will a ringing phone in the back of a 737 screw things up....probalby not. But if everyones phone in 1st class is ringing on the push back from the gate, the crew could miss a hold short clearance.....


I've heard the same buzz you're talking about. Just hold the antenna close to a set of computer speakers or your CRT monitor and you can experience the interference. Move it away a couple inches or more and it will go away.

Problem is, how can you make a rule that you can't use your cell phone in specific areas of a plane on a commercial flight? :)
 
AirBaker said:
I've heard the same buzz you're talking about. Just hold the antenna close to a set of computer speakers or your CRT monitor and you can experience the interference. Move it away a couple inches or more and it will go away.

Problem is, how can you make a rule that you can't use your cell phone in specific areas of a plane on a commercial flight? :)

Well thats the problem...you can't thats why they ask everyone to please turn them off. Some aircraft the avionics may be in the back 1/3 of the aircraft under the floor and not in the nose. So I think its a very conservative catch-all attempt. 99.9% of the time its probably not a big deal. But that .1% when the RVR is down and the crew is flying the last 200ft of the approach or when trying to taxi on centerline lighting with a low vis taxi chart, or if an ILS critical area is in effect, that ringing phone might, might cause a problem. Is it only important when you're on the aircraft...perhaps!? :) :hairraise:
 
Below is the whole story about cell phones.

FCC Prohibits In-flight Use of Cell Phones

Section 22.925 of the Commission's rules, 47CFR Part 22, provides that cellular telephones installed in, or carried aboard airplanes, balloons, or any other type of aircraft, must not be operated while the aircraft is off the ground. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft: The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while the aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."

However, the Commission has granted AirCell, Inc. (AirCell) and certain participating cellular carriers limited waivers of Section 22.925, to allow the use of AirCell equipment while airborne, subject to certain conditions. The AirCell equipment, which includes a modified cellular mobile telephone and specially designed aircraft antenna, is designed to avoid causing significant interference to terrestrial cellular systems.

Pursuant to appeals filed by certain cellular licensees opposing the Commission's grant of such waivers, the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit rejected petitioners' claim that the Commission's grant of the waivers unlawfully modified their licenses, but remanded the case to the Commission to further explain certain of the technical grounds for its decision. See AT&T Wireless Services, Inc., v. FCC, 270 F.3d 959 (D.C. Cir. 2001). This remand, as well as a separate request by AirCell to extend the duration of the waivers, are currently pending before the Commission.

Section 91.21 of the FAA rules (14. C.F.R. 91.21) prohibits the use of (with some exceptions) portable electronic devices while on board U.S. registered civil aircraft operated by the holder of an air carrier operating certificate, or operating certificate, or any other aircraft operated under instrument flight rules. The FAA has issued an advisory circular offering information and guidance for assistance in compliance with Section 91.21. Reference http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/cellular/operations/aircraft.html

Reasoning behind the FCC Ruling
Cell phones at altitude …
Line-of-site communications to many cells Incompatible with ground frequency re-use pattern Causes interference with voice channels.

FAA Position on PEDs/Cell Phones
“(Advisory Circular 91.21-1A) … prohibits the operation of PEDs (Personal Electronic Devices) aboard U.S.-registered civil aircraft allows for the operation of PEDs which the operator of the aircraft has determined will not interfere with the navigation or communication system of that aircraft …”

Background information. Section 91.21 (formerly 91.19) was initially established in May 1961 to prohibit the operation of portable frequency-modulated radio receivers aboard U.S. air carrier and U.S.-registered aircraft when the very high frequency omnidirectional range was being used for navigation purposes. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) subsequently determined that other PED's could be potentially hazardous to aircraft communication and navigation equipment, if operated aboard aircraft. Amendment 91-35 amended the scope of former section 91.19 to prohibit the use of additional PED's aboard certain U.S. civil aircraft. Earlier studies conducted by RTCA, Inc. (RTCA), Special Committee 156, Document No. RTCA/DO-199, Volumes 1 and 2, entitled “Potential Interference to Aircraft Electronic Equipment from Devices Carried Aboard," have contributed greatly to an understanding of the operational effects of PED's aboard aircraft.
Section 91.21 allows for the operation of PED's which the operator of the aircraft has determined wìll not interfere with the navigation or communication system of that aircraft. The determination of the effect of a particular device on the navigation and communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used or operated must, in case of an aircraft operated by the holder of an air carrier certificate or other operating certificate, be made by that operator (i.e., certificate holder). In all other cases, a determination must be made and it may be made by the operator and/or the pilot-in-command (PIC). In some cases, the determination may be based on operational tests conducted by the operator without sophisticated testing equipment. When safely at cruise altitude, the pilot could allow the devices to be operated. If interference is experienced, the types of devices causing interference could be isolated, along with the applicable conditions recorded. The device responsible for the interference should then be turned off. If all operators collect this type of data with specific information, a large enough database could be generated to identify specific devices causing interference. The operator may elect to obtain the services of a person or facility having the capability of making the determination for the particular electronic device and aircraft concerned. The rule as adopted was drafted to require the air carrier or commercial operator to determine whether a particular PED will cause interference when operated aboard its aircraft. Personnel specifically designated by the air carrier or commercial operator for this purpose may make this determination. For other aircraft, the language of the rule expressly permits the determination to be made by the PIC or operators of the aircraft. Thus, in the case of rental aircraft, the renter-pilot, lessee, or owner-operator could make the determination.

There are certain devices, whìch by their nature and design, transmit intentionally. These include cellular telephones, citizens band radios, remote control devices, etc. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) typically licenses these devices as land mobile devices. The FCC currently prohibits the use and operation of cellular telephones while airborne. Its primary concern is that a cellular telephone, while used airborne, would have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit. This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times within a market. Since a cellular mobile telephone unit is capable of operating on all assignable cellular frequencies, serious interference may also occur to cellular systems in adjacent markets. The FAA supports this airborne restriction for reasons of potential interference to critical aircraft systems. Currently, the FAA does not prohibit use of cellular telephones in aircraft while on the ground if the operator has determined that they wìll not interfere with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which they are to be used. An example might be their use at the gate or during an extended wait on the ground, while awaiting a gate, when specifically authorized by the captain. A cellular telephone will not be authorized for use while the aircraft is being taxied for departure after leaving the gate. The unit will be turned off and properly stowed, otherwise it is possible that a signal from a ground cell could activate it. Whatever procedures an operator elects to adopt should be clearly spelled out in oral departure briefings and by written material provided to each passenger to avoid passenger confusion.

Telephones, whìch have been permanently installed in the aircraft, are licensed as air-ground radiotelephone service frequencies. In addition, they are installed and tested in accordance with the appropriate certification and airworthiness standards. These devices are not considered PED's provided they have been installed and tested by an FAA-approved repair station or an air carrier's-approved maintenance organization and are licensed by the FCC as air-ground units.

Stache
 
Not entirely the whole story. YOu left out the part where part 22 is only for the phones that operate in the 800MHz band. THose that oeprate in the 1.9MHz badn are covered by Part 24 which has NO inlfight provisions.

Stache said:
Below is the whole story about cell phones.

FCC Prohibits In-flight Use of Cell Phones

Section 22.925 of the Commission's rules, 47CFR Part 22, provides that cellular telephones installed in, or carried aboard airplanes, balloons, or any other type of aircraft, must not be operated while the aircraft is off the ground. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft: The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while the aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."

However, the Commission has granted AirCell, Inc. (AirCell) and certain participating cellular carriers limited waivers of Section 22.925, to allow the use of AirCell equipment while airborne, subject to certain conditions. The AirCell equipment, which includes a modified cellular mobile telephone and specially designed aircraft antenna, is designed to avoid causing significant interference to terrestrial cellular systems.

Pursuant to appeals filed by certain cellular licensees opposing the Commission's grant of such waivers, the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit rejected petitioners' claim that the Commission's grant of the waivers unlawfully modified their licenses, but remanded the case to the Commission to further explain certain of the technical grounds for its decision. See AT&T Wireless Services, Inc., v. FCC, 270 F.3d 959 (D.C. Cir. 2001). This remand, as well as a separate request by AirCell to extend the duration of the waivers, are currently pending before the Commission.

Section 91.21 of the FAA rules (14. C.F.R. 91.21) prohibits the use of (with some exceptions) portable electronic devices while on board U.S. registered civil aircraft operated by the holder of an air carrier operating certificate, or operating certificate, or any other aircraft operated under instrument flight rules. The FAA has issued an advisory circular offering information and guidance for assistance in compliance with Section 91.21. Reference http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/cellular/operations/aircraft.html

Reasoning behind the FCC Ruling
Cell phones at altitude …
Line-of-site communications to many cells Incompatible with ground frequency re-use pattern Causes interference with voice channels.

FAA Position on PEDs/Cell Phones
“(Advisory Circular 91.21-1A) … prohibits the operation of PEDs (Personal Electronic Devices) aboard U.S.-registered civil aircraft allows for the operation of PEDs which the operator of the aircraft has determined will not interfere with the navigation or communication system of that aircraft …”

Background information. Section 91.21 (formerly 91.19) was initially established in May 1961 to prohibit the operation of portable frequency-modulated radio receivers aboard U.S. air carrier and U.S.-registered aircraft when the very high frequency omnidirectional range was being used for navigation purposes. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) subsequently determined that other PED's could be potentially hazardous to aircraft communication and navigation equipment, if operated aboard aircraft. Amendment 91-35 amended the scope of former section 91.19 to prohibit the use of additional PED's aboard certain U.S. civil aircraft. Earlier studies conducted by RTCA, Inc. (RTCA), Special Committee 156, Document No. RTCA/DO-199, Volumes 1 and 2, entitled “Potential Interference to Aircraft Electronic Equipment from Devices Carried Aboard," have contributed greatly to an understanding of the operational effects of PED's aboard aircraft.
Section 91.21 allows for the operation of PED's which the operator of the aircraft has determined wìll not interfere with the navigation or communication system of that aircraft. The determination of the effect of a particular device on the navigation and communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used or operated must, in case of an aircraft operated by the holder of an air carrier certificate or other operating certificate, be made by that operator (i.e., certificate holder). In all other cases, a determination must be made and it may be made by the operator and/or the pilot-in-command (PIC). In some cases, the determination may be based on operational tests conducted by the operator without sophisticated testing equipment. When safely at cruise altitude, the pilot could allow the devices to be operated. If interference is experienced, the types of devices causing interference could be isolated, along with the applicable conditions recorded. The device responsible for the interference should then be turned off. If all operators collect this type of data with specific information, a large enough database could be generated to identify specific devices causing interference. The operator may elect to obtain the services of a person or facility having the capability of making the determination for the particular electronic device and aircraft concerned. The rule as adopted was drafted to require the air carrier or commercial operator to determine whether a particular PED will cause interference when operated aboard its aircraft. Personnel specifically designated by the air carrier or commercial operator for this purpose may make this determination. For other aircraft, the language of the rule expressly permits the determination to be made by the PIC or operators of the aircraft. Thus, in the case of rental aircraft, the renter-pilot, lessee, or owner-operator could make the determination.

There are certain devices, whìch by their nature and design, transmit intentionally. These include cellular telephones, citizens band radios, remote control devices, etc. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) typically licenses these devices as land mobile devices. The FCC currently prohibits the use and operation of cellular telephones while airborne. Its primary concern is that a cellular telephone, while used airborne, would have a much greater transmitting range than a land mobile unit. This could result in serious interference to transmissions at other cell locations since the system uses the same frequency several times within a market. Since a cellular mobile telephone unit is capable of operating on all assignable cellular frequencies, serious interference may also occur to cellular systems in adjacent markets. The FAA supports this airborne restriction for reasons of potential interference to critical aircraft systems. Currently, the FAA does not prohibit use of cellular telephones in aircraft while on the ground if the operator has determined that they wìll not interfere with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which they are to be used. An example might be their use at the gate or during an extended wait on the ground, while awaiting a gate, when specifically authorized by the captain. A cellular telephone will not be authorized for use while the aircraft is being taxied for departure after leaving the gate. The unit will be turned off and properly stowed, otherwise it is possible that a signal from a ground cell could activate it. Whatever procedures an operator elects to adopt should be clearly spelled out in oral departure briefings and by written material provided to each passenger to avoid passenger confusion.

Telephones, whìch have been permanently installed in the aircraft, are licensed as air-ground radiotelephone service frequencies. In addition, they are installed and tested in accordance with the appropriate certification and airworthiness standards. These devices are not considered PED's provided they have been installed and tested by an FAA-approved repair station or an air carrier's-approved maintenance organization and are licensed by the FCC as air-ground units.

Stache
 
When in New Zealand, my "co-pilot" regularly uses his cell phone while in the air. I saw him do it twice to get a gate at Christchurch. I don't know the service he has there, but there didn't seem to be much of a problem getting a signal. Neither of us is instrument rated, nor is the plane, so the only interference issue would be with the com radios. I didn't notice any interference, however.

Interestingly enough, when I asked him he said that cell phone use is not permitted on the tarmac, whether in a plane or not, but that there are no restrictions on use in the air.
 
Bones said:
Well thats the problem...you can't thats why they ask everyone to please turn them off. Some aircraft the avionics may be in the back 1/3 of the aircraft under the floor and not in the nose. So I think its a very conservative catch-all attempt. 99.9% of the time its probably not a big deal. But that .1% when the RVR is down and the crew is flying the last 200ft of the approach or when trying to taxi on centerline lighting with a low vis taxi chart, or if an ILS critical area is in effect, that ringing phone might, might cause a problem. Is it only important when you're on the aircraft...perhaps!? :) :hairraise:

Agreed. Amongst GA, I dont think its a big issue.
 
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