Carrying guns/ammo PART 119 OPS!

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Joelsweet

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Joel
OK so I am having some trouble finding info pertaining to PRIVATE CARRIAGE commercial operations with guns and ammo aboard. All I am able to find is info pertaining to part 91 GA ops.

Aside from the usual precautions and such listed with articles pertaining to part 91 gun/ammo carriage, can anyone point me to some info? Perhaps an AC or regs. dealing with commercial ops?

Thanks in advance Y'all!
 
What's your GOM say?
 
Kristin said:
You will find it in Part 135.
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Yeah, that too.

§135.119 Prohibition against carriage of weapons.
No person may, while on board an aircraft being operated by a certificate holder, carry on or about that person a deadly or dangerous weapon, either concealed or unconcealed. This section does not apply to—

(a) Officials or employees of a municipality or a State, or of the United States, who are authorized to carry arms; or

(b) Crewmembers and other persons authorized by the certificate holder to carry arms.
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Still the B part will require a check of ones GOM.
 
How do the charter guys in Alaska do it? I know they take guys out in the bush to do some hunting.
 
Still for compensation, so I thought that 119 would apply.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
How do the charter guys in Alaska do it? I know they take guys out in the bush to do some hunting.
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We take people hunting here in the lower 48. The guns need to be unloaded and the ammunition stored separately, and/or not accessible to the passengers.
 
Everskyward said:
We take people hunting here in the lower 48. The guns need to be unloaded and the ammunition stored separately, and/or not accessible to the passengers.
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Do you have a commercial operators permit?
 
Joelsweet said:
Still for compensation, so I thought that 119 would apply.
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Two points: One, you are already illegal unless your friend is licensed as an Air Carrier. I am assuming that is not the case or you wouldn't be asking. However, no one is likely to catch you.

Two, you are looking in the wrong regulation. Part 119 is directed at how you certify as an air carrier. The operating rules for air carriers are in other sections, primarily Part 121 and Part 135.
 
Kristin said:
OK, so I gather that you are the one flying the plane or you are hiring a third party to do the flying. If you friend with the twin is doing the flying, then you have a charter situation, in the eyes of the Feds that is.
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Correct. Sorry should have clarified I will be the PIC taking a friend in a different friends aircraft. This is a scenario, flying a friends Seminole to a gun show, for a CMEL check ride - just want to cover all my bases if the examiner starts asking about regs dealing with transportation of firearms and ammo.
 
Joelsweet said:
Flying a friends light twin! But not paying the pro-rata! Just want to stay legal.
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Joelsweet said:
Correct. Sorry should have clarified I will be the PIC taking a friend in a different friends aircraft. This is a scenario, flying a friends Seminole to a gun show, for a CMEL check ride - just want to cover all my bases if the examiner starts asking about regs dealing with transportation of firearms and ammo.
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so...who's not paying pro rata, and who's leasing the airplane?

This is starting to sound like guns and ammo on board are the least of your worries.
 
MauleSkinner said:
so...who's not paying pro rata, and who's leasing the airplane?

This is starting to sound like guns and ammo on board are the least of your worries.
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I am being compensated by the person going to the gun show. No holding out, was approached out of the blue. Airplane is being lended to me by friend who owns it and is not charging me to rent.
 
Joelsweet said:
I am being compensated by the person going to the gun show. No holding out, was approached out of the blue. Airplane is being lended to me by friend who owns it and is not charging me to rent.
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Uh, trouble in River City, my friend. That makes YOU the operator. Illegal. Your gun-toting friend should have leased the plane, then hired you to fly it. Even that might be a sham.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Uh, trouble in River City, my friend. That makes YOU the operator. Illegal. Your gun-toting friend should have leased the plane, then hired you to fly it. Even that might be a sham.

dtuuri
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:yeahthat: That will look like a charter to the FAA, in the unlikely event that you get caught at it.
 
You guys make my head hurt always asking permission to take a friend for a ride in your other friend's plane. "But I might get in trooouuuuuble!"

Im pretty sure, I'd borrow my friend's plane, fly my buddy to the gun show. Have fun, buy a couple new guns and fly home. If the buddy pay for some gas, he pays for some gas.

Geez louise!
 
JCranford said:
You guys make my head hurt always asking permission to take a friend for a ride in your other friend's plane. "But I might get in trooouuuuuble!"

Im pretty sure, I'd borrow my friend's plane, fly my buddy to the gun show. Have fun, buy a couple new guns and fly home. If the buddy pay for some gas, he pays for some gas.

Geez louise!
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On a commercial check ride??!

dtuuri
 
JCranford said:
You guys make my head hurt always asking permission to take a friend for a ride in your other friend's plane. "But I might get in trooouuuuuble!"

Im pretty sure, I'd borrow my friend's plane, fly my buddy to the gun show. Have fun, buy a couple new guns and fly home. If the buddy pay for some gas, he pays for some gas.

Geez louise!
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this.....come on, how difficult do we need to make this? :rolleyes:
 
JCranford said:
Who said anything about a commercial check ride!?
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The OP...
Joelsweet said:
Correct. Sorry should have clarified I will be the PIC taking a friend in a different friends aircraft. This is a scenario, flying a friends Seminole to a gun show, for a CMEL check ride - just want to cover all my bases if the examiner starts asking about regs dealing with transportation of firearms and ammo.
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This whole scenario is confusing. Who takes a check ride at a gun show?
 
Ahh. yeah, missed that part. Or rather I read that as the OP was flying to a destination to do a checkride. Not that the flight WAS the checkride. Thats a no-go, for the friend, the guns, the borrowed plane. Just scrap the whole thing and start over!
 
i think the OP's premise is very valid...if he shows up for the checkride and the DPE sees a buddy get out of the airplane with guns and ammo for the gun show, the oral exam will probably start with what he can and can't do for carrying passengers, guns, and ammunition (both as a Private Pilot on the way to the checkride and as a Commercial Pilot on the way home.

I'd suggest a little more research in the Private/Commercial priveleges area...and as much as I hate the phrase "all you need to know about _______ is...", I'm gonna use it. Realistically, about all he needs to know about 119 and 135 is that:
(a) a Commercial certificate doesnt qualify a pilot for 119/135 OP's, and
(b) how to not violate (a)...119.1 lists operations that don't fall under 119's authority, but legal interpretations and case examples will give a lot clearer picture.
 
Or just do the check ride, THEN go fly buddy to the gun show?

Or offload buddy and the guns, THEN do the check ride.

Ether way, having a DPE pull up to you and a friend offloading guns in a leased airplane is not starting a ride off well regardless of the FARs. Better it just be the applicant and a box of check ride doughnuts.
 
Interestingly the 135 part quoted, doesn't cover what "about" the person means. If it's locked in an inaccessible baggage compartment...?

And the vague "deadly weapon" is interesting also. Knives...? Box cutter? Fountain pen?

Mari's real-world experience has similar wording to the typical 121 scenario for firearms...

And then of course there's both Federal law if the aircraft comes to a stop inside a TSA secured area of a 121 airport...

And State and Municipal law in some places... good luck finding all of them...
 
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