canceling IFR after landing at non-towered airports

[Velocity173]

If you're absolutely 100% certain you are going to land, mighty fine. Otherwise, the folks on the ground or behind me can wait, because I don't feel like repeating that mess in Rhode Island or finding myself flying a missed without a clearance or any of half a dozen other bad scenarios I can imagine after I cancel.

If you're doing a visual and it's CAVU out, what's the purpose in retaining your IFR? Approach is going to terminate radar services on you anyway. It's just causing unnecessay delays. Back in the day when Hilton Head, SC (HXD) was a busy VFR uncontrolled field, I would work arrival after arrival into that place. No way could traffic flow efficiently into the field without guys cancelling.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're doing a visual and it's CAVU out, what's the purpose in retaining your IFR? Approach is going to terminate radar services on you anyway. It's just causing unnecessay delays. Back in the day when Hilton Head, SC (HXD) was a busy VFR uncontrolled field, I would work arrival after arrival into that place. No way could traffic flow efficiently into the field without guys cancelling.

As I said, if you're sure, go ahead. But this business of canceling when breaking out in conditions in which you wouldn't even consider launching VFR is downright shortsighted.

 

[roncachamp]

Can you offer your expert opinion on why it does not?

Affirmative.

 

[Velocity173]

As I said, if you're sure, go ahead. But this business of canceling when breaking out in conditions in which you wouldn't even consider launching VFR is downright shortsighted.

Oh yeah I agree. You could get your self in quite a predicament as well. A bad scenario would be someone cancelling on say a two mile final in marginal weather because they're worried about getting hold of ATC on the ground. If they had an accident while trying to circle to another runway then no one might even know they crashed. ATC is done with them, FSS doesn't know, and if it's out in the country there might not even be witnesses. IFR weather and I might hold onto it until landing uless I'm talking to someone on UNICOM.

 

[roncachamp]

If you're doing a visual and it's CAVU out, what's the purpose in retaining your IFR? Approach is going to terminate radar services on you anyway. It's just causing unnecessay delays. Back in the day when Hilton Head, SC (HXD) was a busy VFR uncontrolled field, I would work arrival after arrival into that place. No way could traffic flow efficiently into the field without guys cancelling.

Not really, as the departures are just as free to operate VFR as the arrivals are.

 

[denverpilot]

I'll throw the newbie thought out there...

I usually cancel on the ground, 'cause I'm busy enough making sure I don't eat a dirt sandwich, in the air.

Another thing I've noticed... when arriving "home" at KAPA, IFR arrivals don't get told to enter the pattern VMC... you get a nice vector straight onto final, even if they're just gonna give you the Visual anyway.

Saves me some time. I'll take the Visual if I'm gonna get vectors to straight-ins, any day of the week. Sorry VFR guys, Tower will just have to extend your downwind.

(Ahh, such an elitist prick that makes me... I know. I know. )

 

[Velocity173]

Not really, as the departures are just as free to operate VFR as the arrivals are.

Sure if the guy wants to depart VFR and pick his clearance up in the air. That's what I'd do. Not sure if any of the commuter guys are even able to do that though. I know Piedmont couldn't when I talked to them.

 

[aterpster]

Affirmative.

Care to share the specifics in this thread?

 

[roncachamp]

Sure if the guy wants to depart VFR and pick his clearance up in the air. That's what I'd do. Not sure if any of the commuter guys are even able to do that though. I know Piedmont couldn't when I talked to them.

Those that aren't allowed to do it on the way out probably aren't allowed to do it on the way in either.

 

[roncachamp]

Care to share the specifics in this thread?

Negative.

 

[Captain]

If you're absolutely 100% certain you are going to land, mighty fine. Otherwise, the folks on the ground or behind me can wait, because I don't feel like repeating that mess in Rhode Island or finding myself flying a missed without a clearance or any of half a dozen other bad scenarios I can imagine after I cancel.

My rule is I plan on a moose walking out on the runway. If the weather is clear enough given terrain and airspace for me to go around and STAY VFR then fine, I cancel. If that moose is going to cause me a headache with terrain / airspace due to low ceiling and maintaining VFR cloud clearance then I'm sorry 'guy on the ground'. You're going to have to wait and I'm going to have to call on the ground to cancel.

Good news that if the ceilings are low enough for me to not be able to stay in my 1,500' pattern VFR then I'm pretty close to the field anyway when I break out of IMC...so the wait is short.

Plus, if you're really in a hurry to get out you can be on the radio / phone with clearance and cancel for me. You just have to see me on the ground and prove it to ATC by giving them my tail number. I've done that before myself and have been released while the traffic I was waiting for was still taxing in and hadn't called yet. I'm sure they get a start when the do call and they tell him it's already been cancelled. Never been there for that...

 

[poadeleted20]

Sure if the guy wants to depart VFR and pick his clearance up in the air. That's what I'd do.

If you take off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance airborne, the reply to our initial call to ATC may not be “radar contact, cleared as filed” but instead may be any of following:

1. N12345, Boondock Approach, you are below my radar coverage and below the MEA; you’ll have to climb VFR to [1000 above the base of the solid overcast] before I can issue a clearance.

2. N12345, Boondock Approach, unable to accept additional traffic, expect one-zero minute delay, remain clear of Class B airspace and maintain VFR.

3. N12345, Boondock Approach, radar contact, cleared to [an intersection you never heard of] via [a route you neither filed nor planned], turn left heading [directly into a maturing thunderstorm], climb and maintain [an altitude at which moderate rime/mixed ice is forecast], when receiving [a VOR station you can’t find on the L-chart] proceed direct.

What are you going to do in each of these cases? This Beechjet crew didn't have such a plan, and it cost them and their passengers their lives. Personally, I will not launch VFR to pick up my IFR airborne unless I can complete the flight safely under VFR if the IFR option doesn't work.

 

[poadeleted20]

My rule is I plan on a moose walking out on the runway. If the weather is clear enough given terrain and airspace for me to go around and STAY VFR then fine, I cancel. If that moose is going to cause me a headache with terrain / airspace due to low ceiling and maintaining VFR cloud clearance then I'm sorry 'guy on the ground'. You're going to have to wait and I'm going to have to call on the ground to cancel.

We're on the same page in the hymnal on this one.

 

[cirrusmx]

If you can climb vfr after departure and stay out of controlled airpsace (C,B,D)on the meanwhile then you can always open your ifr flight plan on the air and go on with business. Save some hobbs.

 

[roncachamp]

If you take off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance airborne, the reply to our initial call to ATC may not be “radar contact, cleared as filed” but instead may be any of following:

1. N12345, Boondock Approach, you are below my radar coverage and below the MEA; you’ll have to climb VFR to [1000 above the base of the solid overcast] before I can issue a clearance.

There is no overcast:

If you're doing a visual and it's CAVU out, what's the purpose in retaining your IFR? Approach is going to terminate radar services on you anyway. It's just causing unnecessay delays. Back in the day when Hilton Head, SC (HXD) was a busy VFR uncontrolled field, I would work arrival after arrival into that place. No way could traffic flow efficiently into the field without guys cancelling.

2. N12345, Boondock Approach, unable to accept additional traffic, expect one-zero minute delay, remain clear of Class B airspace and maintain VFR.

Boondock doesn't have Class B airspace, it probably doesn't have an approach control, so compliance will not be a problem.

3. N12345, Boondock Approach, radar contact, cleared to [an intersection you never heard of] via [a route you neither filed nor planned], turn left heading [directly into a maturing thunderstorm], climb and maintain [an altitude at which moderate rime/mixed ice is forecast], when receiving [a VOR station you can’t find on the L-chart] proceed direct.

Approach can provide an initial heading, there's no thunderstorm or ice, it's CAVU.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you can climb vfr after departure and stay out of controlled airpsace (C,B,D)on the meanwhile then you can always open your ifr flight plan on the air and go on with business.

No, you cannot "always" obtain your IFR clearance in the air. There is simply no guarantee, and, as discussed above, a lot of things which can prevent it from happening. Never, ever bet the ranch that you're going to get it in the air -- always have a VFR Plan B ready to use.

 

[SCCutler]

You are referring to 888-766-8267?

Have you actually used that number to cancel IFR? I'm just wondering whether it works for that purpose, since it is advertised by the FAA only for obtaining clearances. DrMack also asked on this thread whether anybody has used this number to cancel IFR, but nobody replied.

Sorry I failed to respond earlier.

I have done so, and it works just fine. I use it at a field to which we frequently fly at which the Center cannot be reached below something like 3,000 AGL; if you needed an approach, then cancelling in the air is not much of an option (I have cancelled through a relay a time or two, when ceilings and vis were high enough for legal VFR landing assured, and I knew someone else was waiting for my cancellation to fly the approach or to depart IFR).

 

[roncachamp]

I have done so, and it works just fine. I use it at a field to which we frequently fly at which the Center cannot be reached below something like 3,000 AGL; if you needed an approach, then cancelling in the air is not much of an option (I have cancelled through a relay a time or two, when ceilings and vis were high enough for legal VFR landing assured, and I knew someone else was waiting for my cancellation to fly the approach or to depart IFR).

What's the field?

 

[Velocity173]

If you take off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance airborne, the reply to our initial call to ATC may not be “radar contact, cleared as filed” but instead may be any of following:

1. N12345, Boondock Approach, you are below my radar coverage and below the MEA; you’ll have to climb VFR to [1000 above the base of the solid overcast] before I can issue a clearance.

2. N12345, Boondock Approach, unable to accept additional traffic, expect one-zero minute delay, remain clear of Class B airspace and maintain VFR.

3. N12345, Boondock Approach, radar contact, cleared to [an intersection you never heard of] via [a route you neither filed nor planned], turn left heading [directly into a maturing thunderstorm], climb and maintain [an altitude at which moderate rime/mixed ice is forecast], when receiving [a VOR station you can’t find on the L-chart] proceed direct.

What are you going to do in each of these cases? This Beechjet crew didn't have such a plan, and it cost them and their passengers their lives. Personally, I will not launch VFR to pick up my IFR airborne unless I can complete the flight safely under VFR if the IFR option doesn't work.

This isn't an example of what I'm referring to departing VFR and picking up your clearance in the air. The 17,000 hr captain showed poor airmanship and decision making. In the NTSB report the crash site was "instrument conditions." Since they impacted around 1,600 ft this tells me they departed with a ceiling of around 1,000 ft. I fly EMS all around this area and I can tell you without a 1,500 ft ceiling at RMG, there's now way you're getting over the mountains (really hills) VFR. These guys were scud running in marginal VFR in uncontrolled airspace trying to pick up an IFR. If I can't maintain VMC until reaching my MIA (probably 2,800 ft in this case) then I'm not going to try it. The controller's just going to come back with "can you maintain your own obstruction/terrain clearance until reaching XXXX ft (MVA)?" If I'm already skimming the bases of the clouds and in mountainous terrain below the MIA, that's a recipe for disaster. So if you can't maintain VMC while in a climb up to your MIA, then no, I wouldn't pick up an IFR in the air.

I don't know about anyone being delayed to the point to where a controller couldn't issue a clearance in the air. I think that would be limited to class B only. Not sure Steven's view on it but for me it was far easier for a guy to depart VFR and pick up his clearance in the air. Even if I was busy it was easier. Get them identified, clear them, flash them to center and switch them. It's similiar to when a 4000 code is zipping along an MTR at 500 ft. You look at the stripboard, see an aircraft is getting ready to call up fro his inbound IFR and then get prepared to give the clearance.

Only drawback I see in not departing VFR and picking up an IFR is in the rare case the flight plan wasn't entered or somehow dropped. If it's a piston then there's plenty of time to type one in. Now a jet with no flight plan climbing and closing in on center's airspace? Well that can get hairy. Like I said that's very rare though.

 

[denverpilot]

What's the field?

Perhaps not a field at all, or one without a published approach. But you guys already hashed through all of that...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32956

 

[poadeleted20]

This isn't an example of what I'm referring to departing VFR and picking up your clearance in the air. The 17,000 hr captain showed poor airmanship and decision making. In the NTSB report the crash site was "instrument conditions." Since they impacted around 1,600 ft this tells me they departed with a ceiling of around 1,000 ft. I fly EMS all around this area and I can tell you without a 1,500 ft ceiling at RMG, there's now way you're getting over the mountains (really hills) VFR. These guys were scud running in marginal VFR in uncontrolled airspace trying to pick up an IFR. If I can't maintain VMC until reaching my MIA (probably 2,800 ft in this case) then I'm not going to try it. The controller's just going to come back with "can you maintain your own obstruction/terrain clearance until reaching XXXX ft (MVA)?" If I'm already skimming the bases of the clouds and in mountainous terrain below the MIA, that's a recipe for disaster. So if you can't maintain VMC while in a climb up to your MIA, then no, I wouldn't pick up an IFR in the air.

I don't know about anyone being delayed to the point to where a controller couldn't issue a clearance in the air. I think that would be limited to class B only. Not sure Steven's view on it but for me it was far easier for a guy to depart VFR and pick up his clearance in the air. Even if I was busy it was easier. Get them identified, clear them, flash them to center and switch them. It's similiar to when a 4000 code is zipping along an MTR at 500 ft. You look at the stripboard, see an aircraft is getting ready to call up fro his inbound IFR and then get prepared to give the clearance.

Only drawback I see in not departing VFR and picking up an IFR is in the rare case the flight plan wasn't entered or somehow dropped. If it's a piston then there's plenty of time to type one in. Now a jet with no flight plan climbing and closing in on center's airspace? Well that can get hairy. Like I said that's very rare though.

My experience and the accident reports tell me it's a bigger problem than you think, but YMMV.

 

[bbchien]

Sure if the guy wants to depart VFR and pick his clearance up in the air. That's what I'd do. Not sure if any of the commuter guys are even able to do that though. I know Piedmont couldn't when I talked to them.

Try that in C90 airspace. That's a rotflmao.

 

[ARFlyer]

Sorry I failed to respond earlier.

I have done so, and it works just fine. I use it at a field to which we frequently fly at which the Center cannot be reached below something like 3,000 AGL; if you needed an approach, then cancelling in the air is not much of an option (I have cancelled through a relay a time or two, when ceilings and vis were high enough for legal VFR landing assured, and I knew someone else was waiting for my cancellation to fly the approach or to depart IFR).

That is like my home airport here in SW AR. We can't reach Memphis Center below 3000' on most days. So if the guy knows the area he will clear us for the approach and to contact him via relay or FSS. However if it's someone who normally doesn't work our sector it gets interesting. They end up calling, calling and calling until they relay via a passing airliner.

Now if you are heading west toward MS, south central Arkansas, then all hell breaks loose. Either they tell you unable to provide IFR service or they kick you over to Fort Worth, who in turn gets ****ed off. Little Rock Approach told me late one night it's because Memphis Center has to flip a physical switch to transmit to that area of the state. However the switch is on the other side of the control room. So if ATC is lazy or super busy they will deny any service.