Can you build a plane for less than $10K?

Brian Austin

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Brian Austin
Mission: single person (maybe two if possible), 350-400lb (525 if two person) useful load, 3-4 hr cruising range @ 100kts. Engine size or certification irrelevant. Maximum altitude 12K MSL. Basically, something to get into the air, go somewhere and have a little fun. Sturdy enough for dirt/grass strips. Obviously VFR only, with minimal (used) instrumentation.

I'd like to see if it's possible to build something like this for under $10,000 in my shop. Variety of materials okay. I can weld most metals, have a full woodshop and am fairly handy with new stuff. I also don't mind learning and going back a few steps to fix mistakes if necessary :rolleyes: . Plans only, probably. I'd consider a kit but would probably be looking at a larger ultralight, which I don't want. Open cockpit is fine but not quite THAT open. :D

Any ideas?
 
Well. I don't know about 10K. But for about 15K w/o engine, a careful builder can build a FALCO. And they are works of art.
 
Buying the same airplane completed has historically been cheaper from what I have seen so if $ is the main issue don't build. Also,.. do you want to fly, or do you want to build. There are hundreds maybe thousands of people who wanted to fly and spent 10yrs building and never did fly.
Have you checked out the EAA website Brian?
 
Brian, have you checked out Aeroncas? They come kinda close to your performance wishes, and you can get them ready to go for $15K or less.
 
Part of my reasoning behind building is maintenance. If I built it, I can repair it entirely on my own since I'd have the repairman's certificate for that particular airplane. If I buy someone else's homebuilt, doesn't that mean I'm limited on what maintenance I can perform on it?

Same reasoning with avoiding cheaper type-certificated planes.
 
Brian Austin said:
Part of my reasoning behind building is maintenance. If I built it, I can repair it entirely on my own since I'd have the repairman's certificate for that particular airplane. If I buy someone else's homebuilt, doesn't that mean I'm limited on what maintenance I can perform on it?

Same reasoning with avoiding cheaper type-certificated planes.

Actually, the lifecycle costs are still cheaper with a certificated a/c. The problem is when you are done with it. To avoid liability you should part it out, let the next owner's estate sue you for inappropriate workmanship....after all your work IS by definition substandard, you DON't have a production certificate.

THe only reason to build is if you can't get what you need from production. And that is a good reason.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
.. do you want to fly, or do you want to build.
Both. The reasoning behind the cheaper plane is to build my own while continuing to rent as much or more than I currently am renting. I'd even continue to rent, just not as often.

Later, I can buy a nicer plane. I'd either sell the homebuilt or start experimenting with lightweight powerplants (an interest that has been brewing with the gas prices lately). I'd use the homebuilt as an experimental platform.

I can afford to continue to save money toward a bigger plane while building this one. Instead of spending money on wood and materials for furniture, etc., I'd just be spending it on the plane materials. That's fairly typical for what I've been putting in my shop for the last few years.
 
bbchien said:
Actually, the lifecycle costs are still cheaper with a certificated a/c. The problem is when you are done with it. To avoid liability you should part it out, let the next owner's estate sue you for inappropriate workmanship....after all your work IS by definition substandard, you DON't have a production certificate.

THe only reason to build is if you can't get what you need from production. And that is a good reason.
If the engine is run out or having issues, I can't repair it without A&P oversight. I don't want that. I don't even feel the need to put a certificated engine in it to begin with. Maybe a Rotax, maybe a motorcycle engine. Haven't thought that far ahead.

Selling it isn't a requirement. For $10K plus running costs, I could afford not selling it or using it as a hobby plane.
 
Brian Austin said:
Part of my reasoning behind building is maintenance. If I built it, I can repair it entirely on my own since I'd have the repairman's certificate for that particular airplane. If I buy someone else's homebuilt, doesn't that mean I'm limited on what maintenance I can perform on it?

Same reasoning with avoiding cheaper type-certificated planes.

Actually, if you purchase an existing homebuilt, you can do most maintenance yourself AFaIK. You just have to have it inspected annually by a mechanic.

Also, I wouldn't rule out an inexpensive certified aircraft. As Bruce points out, selling an experimental you built can be risky, and the kind of airplane you are looking for should be simple enough that you could perform much of the maintenance yourself "under supervision" (even an engine rebuild). If I had the time, I think I could keep my maintenance costs on the Porterfield well under a few hundred dollars per year. Right now I'm paying someone else to do most of the work and it's coming out to be between $500 and $1000 per year, including annual inspection, but not an engine overhaul.


BTW, a Mooney Mite could be the answer.
 
With the cost of materials today I don't believe that 10k is doable.

Plans built aircraft can be estimated by going to

http://www.aircraftspruce.com

and using a list of materials do an order. (up date the order with "0" when finished to not order.)

I just got the bill for 2qt, of fabric glue, and 2 gals of reducer to thin the glue.

141, materials 30 for shipping and 50 for hazmat charges.

There are 2 RV-6s being built here on Whidbey Is. both builders tell me they have over 70k invested.

When you build an EXP aircraft, you have 1 inspection to gain an airworthiness certificate, to get the FAA or a DAR (Designated Airworthiness Represenitive) to come inspect your aircraft you must submit a form to the FAA requesting an airworthiness certificate.

On this form there is a section in which you declare how the aircraft was built, "kit" - "Plans Built" - "your own design" - are a few of the blocks to check, including one that says "built from certified aircraft parts".

When the inspector gives you an temporary airworthiness certificate, that certificate has a limitation section that allows you to test the aircraft in a certain area for a required time. Usually 40 hours over a non urban area.

After that test period you get to submit for a perminant certificate this certificate sets the design in stone. (as far as the FAA is concerned) this certificate allows you to operate the aircraft with in the limits of the design. that is with in air speeds, flap speeds, etc

When the DAR/Faa inspector is inspecting your paperwork they will ask who built the aircraft, when you say "I did" they will ask you to prove that. They except pictures, builders books, material recipts, then they will ask "do you want a repairmans certificate"? when you say yes, they will issue "you" a certificate that looks exactly like an A&P certificate, except it will say "repairman for N XXXXX" on it.

This repairmans certificate will allow you to do the required "CONDITIONAL" inspection required to be done every 12 calendar months. Signing off this Conditional inspection you say that this aircraft is airworthy in accordance with its airworthiness certificate. If you do not have a repairmans certificate for THAT N number you can not sign off the inspection. Any A&P can, but they usually won't, because of the liability.
 
Brian Austin said:
I'd like to see if it's possible to build something like this for under $10,000 in my shop. Variety of materials okay. I can weld most metals, have a full woodshop and am fairly handy with new stuff. I also don't mind learning and going back a few steps to fix mistakes if necessary
Sure. At AirVenture last year there were, as I recall, 8 airplanes rounded up in a special display of airplanes under 10K. My favorite is Dave Thatcher's CX4. It's a nifty little airplane and Dave is a heckuva guy. I hunted him down on Friday and learned that in the last year he has sold 70 sets of plans. So obviously you are not alone...

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CX4/ for more info.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Sure. At AirVenture last year there were, as I recall, 8 airplanes rounded up in a special display of airplanes under 10K. My favorite is Dave Thatcher's CX4. It's a nifty little airplane and Dave is a heckuva guy. I hunted him down on Friday and learned that in the last year he has sold 70 sets of plans. So obviously you are not alone...

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CX4/ for more info.
Wow! That's a nice little plane! Fast, too.

Wonder what went wrong somewhere. Found this in his advisories section on http://www.thatchercx4.com/:

3-28-05 Please hold all work on the center section and spar until load test is finished. Some corrections may be necessary.

Thanks, Ken!
 
bbchien said:
The problem is when you are done with it. To avoid liability you should part it ...

Buy one someone else built. Let the liability fall on the builder. When
you sell it .. the liablility still stays with the builder. The only difference
is you'll have to have an A&P do the condition inspections.
 
Brian Austin said:
Mission: single person (maybe two if possible), 350-400lb (525 if two person) useful load, 3-4 hr cruising range @ 100kts. Engine size or certification irrelevant. Maximum altitude 12K MSL. Basically, something to get into the air, go somewhere and have a little fun. Sturdy enough for dirt/grass strips. Obviously VFR only, with minimal (used) instrumentation.

I'd like to see if it's possible to build something like this for under $10,000 in my shop. Variety of materials okay. I can weld most metals, have a full woodshop and am fairly handy with new stuff. I also don't mind learning and going back a few steps to fix mistakes if necessary :rolleyes: . Plans only, probably. I'd consider a kit but would probably be looking at a larger ultralight, which I don't want. Open cockpit is fine but not quite THAT open. :D

Any ideas?

Check out Hummel Birds and Bradley Aerobats...

I've seen a few here & there, pretty cool.
 
Brian Austin said:
If the engine is run out or having issues, I can't repair it without A&P oversight. I don't want that. I don't even feel the need to put a certificated engine in it to begin with. Maybe a Rotax, maybe a motorcycle engine. Haven't thought that far ahead.

Selling it isn't a requirement. For $10K plus running costs, I could afford not selling it or using it as a hobby plane.

You can buy uncertified (no data plate) Lycoming and Continentals from the airboat crowd. You can also use the VW Diesel or an aluminum small block chevy...
 
Brian Austin said:
Wow! That's a nice little plane! Fast, too.

Wonder what went wrong somewhere. Found this in his advisories section on http://www.thatchercx4.com/:

3-28-05 Please hold all work on the center section and spar until load test is finished. Some corrections may be necessary.

Thanks, Ken!

Just an update on that advisory in case you've still been looking at it :)

May 13,2005 The limit load test of 3.8Gs has been completed and the ultimate load test of 5.7 Gs has been completed and both were satisfactory. The spar and center section modification dated April 4,2005 must be installed before this test is valid.
 
Brian Austin said:
I'd like to see if it's possible to build something like this for under $10,000 in my shop. Variety of materials okay. I can weld most metals, have a full woodshop and am fairly handy with new stuff. I also don't mind learning and going back a few steps to fix mistakes if necessary :rolleyes: . Plans only, probably. I'd consider a kit but would probably be looking at a larger ultralight, which I don't want. Open cockpit is fine but not quite THAT open. :D

Any ideas?

A friend of mine bought the plans for the Long EZ because he had read that it could be built in 600 hours. Now bear in mind building that thing from plans meant making his own foam cores for all the fiber glass layups. Well, to make a long story short. 15 years and one very aggravated spouse later he was flying his Long EZ. Oh yeah, the cost was a whole lot more than $10K by the time he was finished.

Another friend of mine built an RV6. Now the kit for that airplane is more than $10K but he did manage to get it done in under 15 years. He could have had it finished in five years or so but he had to put the project aside a few times due to money. I think he paid $13K for the airframe kit, he found a mid time engine and he bought a new prop. Those purchases were all done in stages as the funds were available.

From my experience projects like this, not just airplanes, always take longer and cost more than anyone could dream possible. When thinking about getting into a fun project like building an airplane, the emotional aspect often clouds judgement and expectations are very often unrealistic.

Food for thought.

Jeannie
 
bbchien said:
Actually, the lifecycle costs are still cheaper with a certificated a/c. The problem is when you are done with it. To avoid liability you should part it out, let the next owner's estate sue you for inappropriate workmanship....after all your work IS by definition substandard, you DON't have a production certificate.

THe only reason to build is if you can't get what you need from production. And that is a good reason.

A waiver will hold in court against common negligence, you just have the buyer sign one off. There is a reason EXPERIMENTAL is written big where you get in the plane. All other things aside, Caveat Emptor is still in effect in this country as it is in most. As a homebuilder, you are actually in a situation of lower liability because you are an amateur. As long as you don't missrepresent the aircraft as a factory built (such as is possible with a Pitts where there are factory and kit versions), you are pretty safe from a judgement unless you knowingly built something dangerous and didn't care.
 
I got on the Hummel Bird site since you got me thinking about it. Saw the owner's PIX of one done complete with engine for ~$5K, well over 100 knots. +-6Gs !!, not bad.

Not the plane for me to build (want a STOL Amphib) but if you ever see one of these little things at an airport, it's hard not to want to try one.
 
Brian Austin said:
If the engine is run out or having issues, I can't repair it without A&P oversight. I don't want that. I don't even feel the need to put a certificated engine in it to begin with. Maybe a Rotax, maybe a motorcycle engine. Haven't thought that far ahead.

If you leave the engine as a certificated entity I believe you can still do the work/condition inspection under your repairman certificate (someone will surely correct me if this is incorrect). You also have the option to declare the certificated engine "experimental", thereby allowing you to work on the engine, modify as you choose, use non-certificated parts from alternate suppliers, etc. As I understand the process (not all that well), that choice will increase the fly off time.
 
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