Can we use regular medical style oxygen tanks?

John Baker

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John Baker
I have been looking at aviation oxygen systems (portable) they are all in the $400.00 dollar range.

Then I checked out medical cylinders, they are much less money, as are their regulators and such.

Here are some examples:

http://www.tri-medinc.com/TM/page12.html?gclid=CLO0nY2w-6sCFRJShwodDgjxkg

http://www.medicalsupplydepot.com/F...l?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=nextag

http://www.amazon.com/PORTABLE-OXYGEN-SYSTEM-CYLINDER-REGULATOR/dp/B000JRKNN8/ref=pd_sbs_hpc1


http://www.nextag.com/medical-oxygen-tank/products-html

So, can we use this stuff, anyone know about these things?


John
 
Yes you can, but you would need a prescription to get it refilled. That is not a big deal just contact your Medical Examiner and have them give you a scrip for life. Usually, they understand why.

There are other options available also. Refilling is the biggest issue. Make sure the cylinder you choose is easily and cheaply refillable, or buy 2 industrial cylinders and fill them yourself. You have to decide how much you are going to use it.

Refilling at any FBO is expensive so the medical cylinders would be the better way to go for occational use, but the FBO cannot refill medical cylinders. The demand nasal canulas are available on eBay cheap, and on line at suppliers.

I fill my own as we travel above 8500 MSL often. Basically, I built my own system copied from a buddy.

Good luck.
 
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Make sure that it's an aluminum tank, that it has a DOT exemption number stamped by the neck, and that it is within hydrotest date.

Compressed gas cylinders are prohibited on aircraft, unless they have a DOT exemption. The DOT exemption means that the cylinder is up-engineered to deal with the changes in pressure differential as the plane climbs. The number must be stamped on the cylinder.
No difference in price, and pretty much all aluminum cylinders are exempt (essentially no steel cylinders are exempt).

Also, you can change out the medical valve for an ABO valve. Any O2 supply place can do it (whether they will is another question, if they say no, then look for another one).
 
I put together my own system with an E cylinder which I refill at work using a (welding) H cylinder. A fraction of the price.
 
On a related note, what kind of tank and refill procedure would one put in his hangar to re-fill that tank so he doesn't have to rely on the FBO?
 
What is an ABO valve? Can't the medical valve be used?

John

Sorry, aviator's breathing oxygen. I understand they use a different regulator fitting than medical (I don't know for 100% sure).

If you want to use standard medical nasal cannulas, then a medical regulator is what you need.
To use aviation oxygen-saving accessories, I don't think a medical regulator will connect to them.
 
Have a look at [thread=3399]Dr. Bruce's sticky[/thread] on this. It may help.
 
PilotAlan; said:
Compressed gas cylinders are prohibited on aircraft, unless they have a DOT exemption. The DOT exemption means that the cylinder is up-engineered to deal with the changes in pressure differential as the plane climbs. The number must be stamped on the cylinder.

do you have a chapter and verse to support this??

I do not understand the rationale for this requirement when your tank has a working pressure of 2200 PSI. Is hydrotested at 3300 psi and has a rated burst pressure near 4500 psi.

How is certifying the tank for the extra 7 psi pressure change of going to 20,000 feet going to make any difference??

How many part 91 operators have been cited for breaking this "rule"?
 
Sorry, aviator's breathing oxygen. I understand they use a different regulator fitting than medical (I don't know for 100% sure).

If you want to use standard medical nasal cannulas, then a medical regulator is what you need.
To use aviation oxygen-saving accessories, I don't think a medical regulator will connect to them.

You can buy and use a medical tank. The only meaningful diff is that the tanks have serial numbers and are sucked to vacuum by the vendor between fills.

You can buy/rent welding oxy from the gas house in a big tank to refill it. Get a transfixing pigtail and do it yourself. Making a two bottle cascade fill system works even better. If you want pointers, google about cascade transfilling.

Once you transfill a medical bottle on your own it's no longer in spec for medical use until a vendor sucks it to vacuum. No big deal.

Using a medical regulator is ok. You will likely only use 1-2 lpm flow at the most. Medical regulators are constant flow and single patient. Most aviation regulators are for 2-4 users.

Medical nasal cannujas fit onto medical regulators. They should still make medical variety oxygen conserving cannulas. They currently make pulsed delivery regulators that give bursts on inhalation and stop during exhalation. Really stretches the tank endurance.
 
do you have a chapter and verse to support this??
...
How many part 91 operators have been cited for breaking this "rule"?

Yes. I had to make a disaster medical team with 45,000 pounds of equipment flyable on civilian aircraft. So I had to get really conversant with regulations involving compressed gas.

49CFR173 controls movement of hazardous materials. Compressed oxygen is a Division 2.2 compressed gas, and any oxidizer in class 5.1.
49CFR172sec101 places a 75kg limit on O2 in a single aircraft.

49CFR172sec102 states "A cylinder containing Oxygen, compressed, may not be loaded into a passenger-carrying aircraft or in an inaccessible cargo location on a cargo-only aircraft unless it is placed in an overpack or outer packaging that conforms to the performance criteria of Air Transport Association (ATA) Specification 300 for Category I shipping containers"
IATA requires the use of cylinders certified by DOT.

All that said, those regs are primarily for commercial transportation of hazmat. But I am certain the FAA wrote a catchall in the regs somewhere like "No person shall" or "no operator shall" that they could hang you with.
 
On a related note, what kind of tank and refill procedure would one put in his hangar to re-fill that tank so he doesn't have to rely on the FBO?

The Mountain High web site has some information on this. They have a great little computer that saves a lot of O2. Pricey though, I got my two units, used, for much better prices....
 
I put together a setup pretty cheap, all brand new parts:

D-size tank - $40, Ebay
Pediatric regulator - $20, Ebay
Oxygen conserving canulas, pendant style - $20 each, can't remember where.
Pulse Oximeter - $30 (Ebay?)

Ox fill - $15 at the local medical supply house. Turns out they'll actually rent a full tank for the same $15.

The pediatric regulator goes up to 4LPM, and it has very fine adjustments at lower flow rates so I can set it to exactly what I need to maintain my O2 saturation (which conserves oxygen). I use 1 to 1.5lpm as high as 17,000', so this is enough flow for 2 or maybe 3 people.

I took the day-long physiology class at the FAA a couple of weeks ago and asked them if there is really any difference in medical oxygen and aviator's oxygen. The official answer was no. The unofficial answer was that they are the same. The concern is contamination, but as I see it that is just as likely to happen at an FBO as it is at a medical supply shop.
 
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Yes. I had to make a disaster medical team with 45,000 pounds of equipment flyable on civilian aircraft. So I had to get really conversant with regulations involving compressed gas.

49CFR173 controls movement of hazardous materials. Compressed oxygen is a Division 2.2 compressed gas, and any oxidizer in class 5.1.
49CFR172sec101 places a 75kg limit on O2 in a single aircraft.

49CFR172sec102 states "A cylinder containing Oxygen, compressed, may not be loaded into a passenger-carrying aircraft or in an inaccessible cargo location on a cargo-only aircraft unless it is placed in an overpack or outer packaging that conforms to the performance criteria of Air Transport Association (ATA) Specification 300 for Category I shipping containers"
IATA requires the use of cylinders certified by DOT.

All that said, those regs are primarily for commercial transportation of hazmat. But I am certain the FAA wrote a catchall in the regs somewhere like "No person shall" or "no operator shall" that they could hang you with.

And where is the requirement for "exempt" ?

I appreciate the mission requirements you have to conform to, but the part 91 guy rolling his own system isn't exceeding that weight limit nor using non-dot cylinders. I've never seen or used an "exempt" cylinder and that included fixed wing aeromedical use.

As an aside, I keep kicking around the idea of applying to one of the several Tx DMAT teams in my region but never end up following through.

How long you been doing DMAT??
 
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Not all. I have a medical regulator that has a constant flow port and an on demand side.

And a bit of unsolicited advice to the contrary of the esteemed Divers Alert Network... Demand valves fell out of use among EMS professionals nearly 20 years ago. Even in the hands of people who work resuscitations weekly or daily there it's dicey to avoid barotrauma. Last one I saw used by my local EMS was around 1987.

How much harder is it going to be for the divemaster or rescue diver who uses it once a year or less??

Best thing to do with a demand valve is remove it, and screw on another flowmeter to the port for a second patient or pilot to use.
 
And a bit of unsolicited advice to the contrary of the esteemed Divers Alert Network... Demand valves fell out of use among EMS professionals nearly 20 years ago. Even in the hands of people who work resuscitations weekly or daily there it's dicey to avoid barotrauma. Last one I saw used by my local EMS was around 1987.

How much harder is it going to be for the divemaster or rescue diver who uses it once a year or less??

Best thing to do with a demand valve is remove it, and screw on another flowmeter to the port for a second patient or pilot to use.
Are confusing demand valves with positive pressure ventilators?

Demand valves only work when the patient takes a breath. This is the same type of set up as a scuba regulator and something that every DM and Instructor would be very familiar and experienced with. The positive pressure regulator is the one where you push the button and it pushes air into a patient and those I agree are fairly unfamiliar to most dive professionals.
 
And where is the requirement for "exempt" ?

I appreciate the mission requirements you have to conform to, but the part 91 guy rolling his own system isn't exceeding that weight limit nor using non-dot cylinders. I've never seen or used an "exempt" cylinder and that included fixed wing aeromedical use.

As an aside, I keep kicking around the idea of applying to one of the several Tx DMAT teams in my region but never end up following through.

How long you been doing DMAT??

I am sure you have used DOT exempt cylinders, and didn't know it.
If you look at the specs of any of the aviation O2 cylinders, they will call out DOT 3AL which is the standard for aviation exempt cylinders.
Here's Mountain High's specs, look at the bottom http://www.mhoxygen.com/attachments/052_Cyl Chart Inside Front Cover.pdf
With AvOx, the forst line in the description calls out the DOT 3AA spec
http://www.avoxsys.com/pdf/products/portable-oxygen-systems/5600-series-portable-oxygen-systems.pdf
At Catalina Cylinders (who makes the cylinders for almost everyone), the bottom of their cylinder page says "REGULATION & INSPECTION: All seamless aluminum alloy compressed gas cylinders are manufactured in accordance with U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) 3AL and Transport Canada (TC) 3ALM requirements. Every cylinder is inspected and tested by a DOT and TC authorized independent inspection agency."

When the tester tests the cylinder IAW with DOT procedures, they mark the cylinder with 3AL, 3AA, or 3HT (composite bottles), they mark their exemption number on the bottle.

I was with National Medical Response Team 3 for 14 years, as the Logistics Section Chief for 8 years. After 911, I had to make a 22 ton set of hazmat and medical equipment capable of being flown on civilian freight aircraft. That required learning a whole lot about this stuff.
It's a blast. You should do it.
 
Are confusing demand valves with positive pressure ventilators?

Demand valves only work when the patient takes a breath.

If they've changed the design and removed the thumb button (purge) button from the top of it so it CANNOT be manually triggered then that's different.

In a patient who stops breathing using the purge button to ventilate in lieu of a BVM is dangerous. A BVM is safer.

The only thing I used the demand valve for was in the days on non disposable BVM's and they had a port for the demand valve to serve as the O2 source for the BVM.
 
If they've changed the design and removed the thumb button (purge) button from the top of it so it CANNOT be manually triggered then that's different.

In a patient who stops breathing using the purge button to ventilate in lieu of a BVM is dangerous. A BVM is safer.

The only thing I used the demand valve for was in the days on non disposable BVM's and they had a port for the demand valve to serve as the O2 source for the BVM.
The purge button is for the positive pressure regulator or sometimes called demand valve with manual ventilation and those were for non-breathing patients. The demand valves only work for breathing patients and deliver O2 at regular ambient pressure. So I think you were mixing the two design up. But if you look at the DAN there is also a positive pressure regulator in their catalog. But that is not what I was referring to at all even though both types are listed in the catalog. And yes, DAN demands that a responder take additional training if they are going to use the manual ventilator, positive pressure model. I have never actually seen one in the field. All scuba O2 system for first aid that I have seen are either continuous flow or a combination of continuous flow and a demand valve without the positive pressure feature.

I was talking about a plain ole demand valve, which is just like a scuba regulator and very safe. It is nice to have because it only delivers the O2 when you take a breath. That is better than the continuous flow where you waste a lot of O2. But it does cause some complications in a cockpit where you will need to wear a fitted O2 mask instead of nasule cannulas. Demand valve O2 regulators are common on military aircraft as well. But again you are wearing a fitted mask and that makes things a little easier.
 
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