Can someone pull the plug on the FAAST team

X3 Skier said:
The way expenditures for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are going, you could eliminate ALL of government in the future and we will still run a deficit. :dunno:

Cheers
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We're actually there now. Current revenues are only enough to cover those programs, everything else we borrow for.
 
Jay Honeck said:
My financial situation is 100% my choice, and I wouldn't trade it for ten gummint jobs. It's Year Three now, we have one more year of extensive remodeling, and by the end of Year Four we will be in the black.

But that's hardly the point. Paying a government employee almost six figures to put on FAAST seminars is wasteful at best, fraudulent at worst. There are 5000 multimedia graduate students who would JUMP at that job for less than half that pay grade -- and do a far better job of it.

But, of course, THAT'S not the point either, is it? Whether we're paying six figures or five is irrelevant because WE ARE BROKE. When is this going to ever sink in?
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Jay, the FPMs don't put on seminars. The FPMs do analysis of accident causal factors for their areas, and coordinate a bunch of volunteers who go out and try to address those factors with seminars and training.

Look, I've got no sympathy for waste. But so far none of the complaints about the FAAST (with the exception of Ron's noting of one specific personality) have shown any understanding of what these employees actually DO.
 
Jay Honeck said:
My financial situation is 100% my choice, and I wouldn't trade it for ten gummint jobs. It's Year Three now, we have one more year of extensive remodeling, and by the end of Year Four we will be in the black.

But that's hardly the point. Paying a government employee almost six figures to put on FAAST seminars is wasteful at best, fraudulent at worst. There are 5000 multimedia graduate students who would JUMP at that job for less than half that pay grade -- and do a far better job of it.

But, of course, THAT'S not the point either, is it? Whether we're paying six figures or five is irrelevant because WE ARE BROKE. When is this going to ever sink in?
Click to expand...


Jay, Jay, Jay......

Chill out brother..... All of us "half" smart people who do NOT work for the guvmint see the light and how broke the US really is...

The guv workers on this forum will debate till the cows come home how important a job they do and how they are worth EVERY penny they are paid.... .

Most of us self employed "private" sector people have created a nest egg to fund our future....

Most guv workers have new cars/trucks sitting in their driveway and live a fancy lifestyle... When the music stops and their checks quit showing up then two things will happen....

We go on with our lives..

They can't live without that "promised" retirement check, forgot to save money and will be calling Dr Jack Kevorkian for a house call..:eek::yes::rolleyes2: .
 
TMetzinger said:
Jay, the FPMs don't put on seminars. The FPMs do analysis of accident causal factors for their areas, and coordinate a bunch of volunteers who go out and try to address those factors with seminars and training.

Look, I've got no sympathy for waste. But so far none of the complaints about the FAAST (with the exception of Ron's noting of one specific personality) have shown any understanding of what these employees actually DO.
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"The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism." - W. Osler
 
"All 4 found a " special doctor" who greased the wheel of disability claims forms."

This is actually pretty small potatoes compared to the similar scams going on with Social Security Disability. There was a couple of articles in the WSJ a little while ago about Judges who approved 100% of Disability Claims brought by certain Law Firms. They did this for years and some are still doing it since the Justice Depatment is still playing turf wars.

I don't have a link but it was back in Nov/Dec IIRC.

Cheers
 
N801BH said:
Jay, Jay, Jay......

Chill out brother..... All of us "half" smart people who do NOT work for the guvmint see the light and how broke the US really is...

The guv workers on this forum will debate till the cows come home how important a job they do and how they are worth EVERY penny they are paid.... .

Most of us self employed "private" sector people have created a nest egg to fund our future....

Most guv workers have new cars/trucks sitting in their driveway and live a fancy lifestyle... When the music stops and their checks quit showing up then two things will happen....

We go on with our lives..

They can't live without that "promised" retirement check, forgot to save money and will be calling Dr Jack Kevorkian for a house call..:eek::yes::rolleyes2: .
Click to expand...

Fancy lifestyle? I have 2 cars, one is a 2005 and other is a 2006. One is completely paid for. Both bought used. I put 5% of my pay into the TSP and max out 2 Roth IRA's every year. I use my extra GI Bill money for flying. My wife works full-time. I know few feds who live fancy lifestyles. Of the few that do, one is a trust-fund baby, the other got a nice inheritance, another is the one who lives beyond his means (and is broke because of it), and another who is married to a physician and never had kids. I also rent a 800 sq. ft. apartment. I live below my means to save money, because I don't want to be in a position to live on a retirement check alone. I believe my job is more important than other fed jobs (Federal LEO), but I will never argue that I am worth EVERY penny I get paid. There are plenty of fed workers who are just as ticked off at wasteful spending and wish we could change things.
 
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X3 Skier said:
"All 4 found a " special doctor" who greased the wheel of disability claims forms."

This is actually pretty small potatoes compared to the similar scams going on with Social Security Disability. There was a couple of articles in the WSJ a little while ago about Judges who approved 100% of Disability Claims brought by certain Law Firms. They did this for years and some are still doing it since the Justice Depatment is still playing turf wars.

I don't have a link but it was back in Nov/Dec IIRC.

Cheers
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True. You wouldn't believe the number of 20 year olds who collect SSI due to a "learning disablilty". They don't have a disability, they just never went or tried while in school. I'm afraid that I'm at the beginning of a diability fight. I don't want the disability, but the government has started the beginning of "we need more medical documentation on your knee."
 
Having worked for the USAF, private and public companies and as a Sole Proprietor, I was always amazed how good it was at my last job. :D

Now retired after 45+ years of working full and part time and living on various sources of income from savings and investments and SS and yes even a pension, I realized they were all good and bad in their own ways and I was always underpaid.:(

BTW, I earned every damn penny in every job and I carried my three brothers and one sister uphill both ways to school in the snow without shoes when I working full time in a coal mine run by Snively Whiplash. :lol:

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
Having worked for the USAF, private and public companies and as a Sole Proprietor, I was always amazed how good it was at my last job. :D
Click to expand...

I'm always amazed how good it is at my next job. Until I get there. ;)

Thing is, grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Especially when looking at us rich guvment employees with our new cars and zillion dollar mansions. Digging below the surface will find people living above their means in rough proportion to everyone else.

I sometimes dream of the freedom self employment would give me. Then I remember that I've been there. You trade in one set of headaches for another.
 
Shepherd said:
That Model Aviation Code of Conduct is a joint project with the Academy of Model Aeronautics to keep the government (read: President, Congress and the FAA) from making radio control planes illegal in this country.
Obama is so paranoid that he wants to shut down the hobby "in the interests of national security".
For those of you who missed the memo, TFRs now include model planes in the area of the TFR. Anyone caught flying a radio control plane in the area of a TFR is now subject to fines and imprisonment.

Glenn
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The TFR restriction on model planes existed before Obama.
 
alaskaflyer said:
https://www.faasafety.gov/FAASTApp/directory/default.aspx

I believe the reps are FG-13 same as other ASI's? The manager is FG-14. Aren't all ASI managers FG-14 or FG-15?

If people think FAA folks are "overpaid", you should see the NTSB payscales :hairraise: :wink2:
Click to expand...

Nope, FAAST team position is paid at FG-14 since it's considered a Regional job and not a FSDO level job.

Managers are paid "core comp" and not on the FG scale. https://faaco.faa.gov/attachments/Core_Compensation_Overview.pdf
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree that the FAASTeam is certainly not a low-hanging fruit in the realm of "Things we need to cut spending on."

That said, everyone thinks that something that benefits their industry in any way, shape, or form shouldn't be cut. If they cut it, I'd accept it since we have so very, very much that must be cut from the federal budget, even if it means that some other, significantly more expensive and useless programs, aren't cut at the same time.
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Well, here's the problem with that way of thinking. Pretty much every program the feds ever started was with good intention, and a shining example of Govt At Work For the Benefit of the People. I know that the beginning of the Bureau of Indian Affairs felt they were doing Critical Work for the Benefit of Native Americans. And, the AFDC program, WIC, Dept of Ed, etc. There is no govt program that is wasteful or unneeded, therefore our taxes are fully subscribed, and always generate value for money spent.

I"m of the opinion that we should axe about 70% of all programs, and start with the FAA/NTSB. Sacrifices have to be made, and I"m willing to cut out the majority of dept that support the NAS. Look at the amount of the NAS that has been put under positive control over the past 20 years. It's a portent of the end of freedom to fly, and mostly due to empire building by agencies with no constitutional mandate.
 
docmirror said:
Well, here's the problem with that way of thinking. Pretty much every program the feds ever started was with good intention, and a shining example of Govt At Work For the Benefit of the People. I know that the beginning of the Bureau of Indian Affairs felt they were doing Critical Work for the Benefit of Native Americans. And, the AFDC program, WIC, Dept of Ed, etc. There is no govt program that is wasteful or unneeded, therefore our taxes are fully subscribed, and always generate value for money spent.

I"m of the opinion that we should axe about 70% of all programs, and start with the FAA/NTSB. Sacrifices have to be made, and I"m willing to cut out the majority of dept that support the NAS. Look at the amount of the NAS that has been put under positive control over the past 20 years. It's a portent of the end of freedom to fly, and mostly due to empire building by agencies with no constitutional mandate.
Click to expand...

I think we are in agreement actually. But since it is impractical to just go and cut all of those programs tomorrow due to needing to let our worthless Congress of Baboons vote on it, the question is where to make cuts first.

Were it up to me, we could reverse things quickly...
 
docmirror said:
Well, here's the problem with that way of thinking. Pretty much every program the feds ever started was with good intention, and a shining example of Govt At Work For the Benefit of the People. I know that the beginning of the Bureau of Indian Affairs felt they were doing Critical Work for the Benefit of Native Americans. And, the AFDC program, WIC, Dept of Ed, etc. There is no govt program that is wasteful or unneeded, therefore our taxes are fully subscribed, and always generate value for money spent.

I"m of the opinion that we should axe about 70% of all programs, and start with the FAA/NTSB. Sacrifices have to be made, and I"m willing to cut out the majority of dept that support the NAS. Look at the amount of the NAS that has been put under positive control over the past 20 years. It's a portent of the end of freedom to fly, and mostly due to empire building by agencies with no constitutional mandate.
Click to expand...

Be careful what you wish for.

I'm in agreement that virtually every government agency could be cut back and better managed, no doubt about that.

However taking an axe to the NAS has a blowback called "user fees".

I live in a part of the world where user fees are common place. This is primarily because the local governments will not budget or support the NAS.

In the US we have it better than 90% of the rest of the world.
 
We'll have user fees anyway. There is no way it'll stay off the agenda forever.
 
JB1842 said:
There are plenty of fed workers who are just as ticked off at wasteful spending and wish we could change things.
Click to expand...

That is the first time, in all my years on these (and other) forums, that I have read that sort of statement from a government worker. I must say, it's refreshing as hell. Let's hope it's contagious! :D
 
TMetzinger said:
Jay, the FPMs don't put on seminars. The FPMs do analysis of accident causal factors for their areas, and coordinate a bunch of volunteers who go out and try to address those factors with seminars and training.
Click to expand...

And THAT is worth high five figures? Even worse.

Good grief, man, listen to yourself. You're justifying paying a government employee an absurd amount of taxpayer money (plus bennies, plus retirement) to "analyze accident causal factors and coordinate a bunch of volunteers". In my years in the corporate world, that would be what we called a "putz job", with few measurable performance parameters and a cushy work schedule.

I should know -- I once occupied a similar position, known as "Marketing Manager". :D
 
So a task that by its nature can't be quantified into some arbitrary large number of objective performance parameters in your mind and happens to call for a normal work schedule somehow is translated into salary requirements on that basis alone?

Do you even know (or care) how the government grades positions for compensation? Or does my quote a few posts above still carry the day?
 
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Jay Honeck said:
That is the first time, in all my years on these (and other) forums, that I have read that sort of statement from a government worker. I must say, it's refreshing as hell. Let's hope it's contagious! :D
Click to expand...

During my long time in the USAF as an engineer and manager, one of my fun jobs was getting rid of BS requirements that added nothing substantial in bennies and cost anything at all.

This was met with no resistance by anyone in my outfits. All I had to do was ask "why are doing this?" and if I didn't get what I felt was a good answer, we stopped doing it. I was not alone in this approach as it was a universal way of doing business in every assignment. The only way useless work continued was if some yahoo in Congress earmarked the work, usually based on supporting someone or some company who has made "appropriate" contributions to his/her campaign.

As an example, one only has to note the number of times the USAF has tried to retire planes thay don't need anymore and has been forced to keep them in the inventory at ridiculous maintenance costs.

The biggest resistance, bar the earmark boondoggles, I got was in the same positions in Corporate America. Changing anything that was useless work was met with hues and cries louder than I ever heard in the USAF.

When working in a private company, it was more like my experience in the USAF than in Corporate America since it was real money to those folks, not "The Company's Money".

It's like anything. Sterotypes prevail over facts all the time. Since the Stereotypes are "reported" by the press who rarely if ever understand what they are reporting on, they become semi truths.

BTW, the Development side of the USAF where I worked is more like the "government" than the silk scarf side.

Cheers
 
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Jay Honeck said:
That is the first time, in all my years on these (and other) forums, that I have read that sort of statement from a government worker. I must say, it's refreshing as hell. Let's hope it's contagious! :D
Click to expand...

Remember, I'm on the law enforcement side. I see first hand how money is wasted by "entitlement programs" and by the stupid rules that the government has for it's workers. My favorite is the "approved vendor" list. You can only but things from certain vendors, usually at a higher mark-up, even if it's cheaper at Wal-Mart. And you have to spend all your budget every year. That is a huge waste of taxpayers money, in the tune of billions of dollars a year.
 
JB1842 said:
I see first hand how money is wasted by "entitlement programs" and by the stupid rules that the government has for it's workers. My favorite is the "approved vendor" list. You can only but things from certain vendors, usually at a higher mark-up, even if it's cheaper at Wal-Mart. And you have to spend all your budget every year. That is a huge waste of taxpayers money, in the tune of billions of dollars a year.
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One of my favorites was a futile attempt to standardize aircraft fasteners and their head design down to a small number so the wrench turners didn't have to have umpteen bits and tools to lug around. Not to mention the reduced inventory and cost savings. As soon as I started to move that way, I got a s***pot of Congressional direction couched as "inquiries" about how "My constituent poor old Sam's Aluminun Storm Door and Rivet Company who clearly has the only really good design would be bankrupt by the oppressive government thus forcing thousands of widows and orphans onto the street." Of course poor old Sam never made any campaign contributions.:no:

The smaller the business, the louder the noise.

Cheers
 
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X3 Skier said:
One of my favorites was a futile attempt to standardize aircraft fasteners and their head design down to a small number so the wrench turners didn't have to have umpteen bits and tools to lug around. Not to mention the reduced inventory and cost savings. As soon as I started to move that way, I got a s***pot of Congressional direction couched as "inquiries" about how "My constituent poor old Sam's Aluminun Storm Door and Rivet Company who clearly has the only really good design and would be bankrupt by the oppressive government thus forcing thousands of widows and orphans onto the street."

The smaller the business, the louder the noise.

Cheers
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Commone sense and goverment rules don't mix well. One of the reasons I haven't tried for a promotion the past few years is that I'm convinced the higher up in government you go, the more stupid you get.
 
N801BH said:
Let's go about this a different way.....

1- Do you agree the workforce of the Federal Government is excessive ?

2- Is all the legacy costs that are paid out to all the Federal workers sustainable now.... and in the future?.

3- Is the payscale for federal workers excessive compared to similar work in the private sector?

Thanks in advance for your answers sir...
Click to expand...

Off topic-

I'm not supporter of public employees but they are not the problem. They do not make too much money. The rest of us make too little. The problem is that the middle class has been earning a dwindling income (inflation corrected) since 1970. It is invisible to us other than we just have to work harder to have less.

Since Gov employees are indexed (their raises year over year) their meager salaries have kept pace with inflation (maybe not but more so then the rest of us) so now they look like Royalty in the employed world where gov jobs have always been paid less than everyone else. That is one reason they have been given better than average benefits to begin with. No where better, can we see the difference of what we make and what we should be making than by comparing the Federal employee wages with our own.

We, the rest of the middle class, now make much less than our parents did (on average in 1970). Thus we as a group, now pay less taxes because of our lower incomes. 70's were the beginnings of two income homes, now we live below the 70's even with our two income families.

By bitching and pulling on the government employees, I see us grabbing and pulling the other guys (who we perceive to have a better deal than the average man Union workers, Government workers, Railroad workers, Aerospace workers, oil field workers and the like) back into the alligator pit with us. IMO we should let them climb out and find ways politically to correct the situation for all of us. We should be focused on processes that promote all of us to make more money and be paid what we are worth.

Granted we as a group of aviators and owners already make more than average but those average guys do not hardly make a living wage today. This is one problem.
 
JB1842 said:
Commone sense and goverment rules don't mix well. One of the reasons I haven't tried for a promotion the past few years is that I'm convinced the higher up in government you go, the more stupid you get.
Click to expand...

Actually, the top of the pile are 90% of Congress and their Staff and 90% of Political Appointees who are the ones who actually set the rules.

The initial qualifications for most Government positions are well defined while for Congress or a Political Appointment you are only requied to be alive, except in Chicago.

Cheers
 
N801BH said:
Hmmm...
Interesting....

There close to 3 MILLION federal employees..

Alot make over 100,000 a year... not including bennies
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...workers-earn-twice-as-much-as-private-workers

So, Let's take 3 million, and assume they will retire on a large percentage of that... and they average 90 grand a year before retirement... That means the feds will have to pay out 2+ TRILLION per year and suppose they live 25 years past retirement.. Now we are looking at 50+ Trillion in taxpayer obligations.. And this is VERY conservative...

I would love to see the accounting to cover that burden..:eek:
Click to expand...

Got to stop getting your facts from hate sites and trolls.
 
N801BH said:
A good friend who happens to own a plane parked next to me at the airport just retired form the National Park Service... He was a lowly park ranger for 27 years and his wife never worked.. They have two kids.. he just bought a 1.1 million dollar house last year... I asked how he could afford the plane, house, his new Chevy Surburban, a new Subaru for the wife... He said the federal pension covers all those payments... plus a grand or so extra each month... You do the math.. In my book that is one SWEET deal..:yes::eek:
Click to expand...

Ben, your a good guy and I like you but I have to call:

Bull ****!

The director of parks doesn't make that much and the highest pension the gov has ever had (other than congress/senate/supreme court and presidents) is about 50% of income at retirement. It used to be about 60% but has been dwindled down.
 
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N801BH said:
You bring up some good and valid points... What has peaked my interest in the last month or so is the Bengazi fiasco and listening to all the facts now coming to light showing a total disfunctional government agency.. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.. People are blamed, admitted to the failure and thrown under the bus, and it turns out they ALL kept their jobs. A couple were even promoted.....

Reports are there are 256 embasssy's around the world. If they are staffed by 10 people then that makes for 2560 foreign positions.. Then Hillary gets on the TV, takes the blame and says the State Dept has 76,400 employees...:yikes::hairraise::yikes:.... and it is hard to keep track of all those employees........ Ya Think ..:rolleyes:

I had NO idea that the State Dept was even 1/4 that size.. So, if you put two and two together, the image in my mind is all government agencies are bloated to the MAX... And the FAA is probably just a bloated.. IMHO..
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Bengazi fiasco is largely political non event.

However because of all the mud slinging there has been studies and recommendations that it would cost over $55 million per year to give enhanced security to the 250 embassies around the world which do not need it since most embassies are in countries that have stable political system and police.

This is how government bloat and stupid happens. Its called politics.
 
X3 Skier said:
Actually, the top of the pile are 90% of Congress and their Staff and 90% of Political Appointees who are the ones who actually set the rules.

The initial qualifications for most Government positions are well defined while for Congress or a Political Appointment you are only requied to be alive, except in Chicago.

Cheers
Click to expand...

You make a point. But every other day in my agency we get something stupid coming down from on high, and those are from career people. I swear that people changes things every 6 months just so they can tell themselves they "earned" their GS-15/SES pay.
 
X3 Skier said:
The way expenditures for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are going, you could eliminate ALL of government in the future and we will still run a deficit. :dunno:

Cheers
Click to expand...

SS pay is not going to bankrupt the system it is out of control medical costs. I heard that 80% of SS medical goes to people in the last 2 years of their lives. Maybe we should let those old fogies die.

My mom was on chemo and ultimately refused it as she was going to die anyway. Every week her treatments were costing $50 k to SS. So great the preserve her life just long enough to get $2 million paid to the hospital, oncologist, drug companies and techs. There was no quality of life those last two years.

I for one would outlaw all health insurance, all medicare or medicare. Then let the doctors and hospitals go out of business for non payment or lower their fees to what the average patient can afford.

Not one tax dollar should pay for medical any way, any shape any way.

Do away with $25k hospital stays of one night. The average doctor might not be able to continue to make $300-400k and self employed double that and surgeons double that again per year.
 
TMetzinger said:
As a former DEA'er... I'd say keep the demand reduction folks and the Diversion (the folks who monitor the pharmaceuticals). The agency wasn't very featherbedded when I was there - but whether legalization would eliminate the need for it is a diffferent question.
Click to expand...

You want to save money cutting government's wasteful ways:

Brings another topic: decriminalization of marijuana. cut the war on drugs in half, cut the huge cost of penal system imprisoning half million non violent drug offenders.
 
JB1842 said:
You make a point. But every other day in my agency we get something stupid coming down from on high, and those are from career people. I swear that people changes things every 6 months just so they can tell themselves they "earned" their GS-15/SES pay.
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I would be willing to bet most changes were initiated by some political appointee who was brought in to "fix things" even if they have no clue what or if there is a problem and directed the career people to do SOMETHING. Most senior career personnel are trying to limit the damage these uninformed idiots create.

OTOH, I was fortunate to be in the DoD where damage from stupidity was limited by the intervention of uniformed officers and the really dumb ideas were minimized. However, it was General McPeak CSAF, who created the dork boards for the USAF that were scrapped as soon as he left. :D

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I would be willing to bet most changes were initiated by some political appointee who was brought in to "fix things" even if they have no clue what or if there is a problem and directed the career people to do SOMETHING. Most senior career personnel are trying to limit the damage these uninformed idiots create.

OTOH, I was fortunate to be in the DoD where damage from stupidity was limited by the intervention of uniformed officers and the really dumb ideas were minimized. However, it was General McPeak CSAF, who created the dork boards for the USAF that were scrapped as soon as he left. :D

Cheers
Click to expand...

We have one political appointee at the top (our Director) but she was a career person before the appointment, and each district has a political appointee. At the district level, the appointee still has to follow policy. Every few year they change how we do our timesheets, leave requests, budget system, computer databases, ID cards, etc. Every month there is a policy change. In my agency, it is mostly the career people making the calls.
 
Just keeping this in the aviation realm, all the waste I've seen in govt can't even be accurately counted. The debacle with the MLS, NeXtGen, etc. FAAST is just one more debacle idea of some director level empire builder.

In the 'real' world of profit and loss, we have metrics. I know what my number is for continued employment and if I don't meet it more than two quarters in a row, I face removal for cause. I don't ***** about it, and I don't try to change the rules. When I do well, the company makes a profit and they share it with me. Middle risk, middle return.

I'd like to see some real world numbers that show the affects of the FAAST team on accident stats for the target market. First, I'm betting there never were any, second I'm betting they couldn't get any because no one in the feds knows how to do ROI or causation vs casual result, and finally, if they did ever get the stats, I'm skeptical that there would be a correlation.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Off topic-

I'm not supporter of public employees but they are not the problem. They do not make too much money. The rest of us make too little. The problem is that the middle class has been earning a dwindling income (inflation corrected) since 1970. It is invisible to us other than we just have to work harder to have less.

Since Gov employees are indexed (their raises year over year) their meager salaries have kept pace with inflation (maybe not but more so then the rest of us) so now they look like Royalty in the employed world where gov jobs have always been paid less than everyone else. That is one reason they have been given better than average benefits to begin with. No where better, can we see the difference of what we make and what we should be making than by comparing the Federal employee wages with our own.

We, the rest of the middle class, now make much less than our parents did (on average in 1970). Thus we as a group, now pay less taxes because of our lower incomes. 70's were the beginnings of two income homes, now we live below the 70's even with our two income families.

By bitching and pulling on the government employees, I see us grabbing and pulling the other guys (who we perceive to have a better deal than the average man Union workers, Government workers, Railroad workers, Aerospace workers, oil field workers and the like) back into the alligator pit with us. IMO we should let them climb out and find ways politically to correct the situation for all of us. We should be focused on processes that promote all of us to make more money and be paid what we are worth.

Granted we as a group of aviators and owners already make more than average but those average guys do not hardly make a living wage today. This is one problem.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. The problem is a structure that is akin to oligarchy.

I'm new here so hope you don't mind me wading into this one...:eek:
 
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