Can I file/fly IFR right away, or need to wait?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by BlueOrGraySkies, Jul 4, 2022.

  1. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Actually it has not been upheld in court.


    61.3 (a) Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person:

    (1) Has in the person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization -

    (i) A pilot certificate issued under this part and in accordance with § 61.19;

    (ii) A special purpose pilot authorization issued under § 61.77;

    (iii) A temporary certificate issued under § 61.17;

    (iv) A document conveying temporary authority to exercise certificate privileges issued by the Airmen Certification Branch under § 61.29(e);
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  2. geezer

    geezer Line Up and Wait

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    Clip 4,

    I stand corrected.
    There have been cases in the far past that held otherwise, but the government can tighten the rules to where an average person is out of luck.

    It would appear that the school and DPE illegally deprived the OP of his ability to legally fly.

    The tags on my truck were illegally seized by the MD state police, for not having insurance. I obtained a notarized certificate from my insurance carrier that my insurance had not been canceled. I made cardboard tags with a marksalot, and drove with them until the issues with the police were straightened out.

    I did not physically possess those legal tags, the state did. I did in fact own them, and had adequate evidence of ownership, and a receipt from the trooper that he had taken them.
     
  3. Kitch

    Kitch Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is what I was told as well on my PPL checkride. DPE said FAA requires all the time stamps as he moves through the exam.

    Of course our local FSDO was/is on a witch hunt to remove DPE's for some reason, and "they" are basing it on inadequate checkrides based on the amount of time they take.
     
  4. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I didn't get my CFI cert punched the last time I renewed. Of course, it was done via zoom rather than in person at the FSDO.
     
  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I’m in a little different segment of the industry, but the FAA has told us they’re not looking at that anymore. There are too many snafus with IACRA. For the last certificate i issued, IACRA was down all day. We started using a paper 8710, did the oral and flight. By the time we were done, IACRA was back up, and we did completed using IACRA.

    from the time the applicant e-signed the application through signing off the oral and flight to issuing certificate was about 3 minutes.
     
  6. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    There’s no requirement to take the old certificate when issuing a temporary.

    sounds like a DPE ****show in the making.
     
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  7. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    OP could still contact the DPE and have the paper temp license sent to him now.

    OP - any update ?
     
  8. RussR

    RussR En-Route

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    Since there's no requirement for the DPE to put anything in your logbook, not even a signature, there's no issue with electronic logbooks. Just the temporary certificate from IACRA or generated manually is all that's needed.
     
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  9. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    think there may be a misunderstanding on the part of the OP. Just doesn’t make sense.
     
  10. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    When I received my IR in March 2021 the DPE punched the seal on my plastic cert when he gave me the temporary new cert. Same DPE in April 2022 did not punch my plastic cert, just handed me my new CP cert (and multi a week later).
     
  11. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    He passed the check-ride and didn’t get a temp certificate. Seems like it would be hard for OP to mis understand that.
     
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  12. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Talked to the school today. What I learned is the person who conducted my check ride is an FAA authorized internal examiner for the 141 flight school, instead of a full external DPE. So, this examiner is authorized to conduct IR check rides at the specific flight school I attend, but is not authorized to do check rides elsewhere.

    Until today I had never heard of such thing. When I had my PPL check ride last year it was with a normal DPE, and I didn't know any other kind of examiner even existed. I figured that the process for my IR check ride would be similar to the process for my PPL check ride (not the flight and flight requirements, but all the admin stuff).

    I took a look in the regulations, and indeed it seems this is a thing that exists. What I found is spelled out in "Subpart D - Examining Authority" sections 141.61, 141.63, 141.65, and 141.67. Interestingly, 141.67.f reads:

    ". . . when a student passes the knowledge test or practical test, the pilot school that holds examining authority must submit that student's airman application file and training record to the FAA for processing for the issuance of a permanent airman certificate."​

    So, it seems that 141.67.F is why they send my entire record to the FAA.

    This was all news to me, so I guess I learned something today. I'll be glad when I finally have my IR permanent airman certificate in hand.
     
  13. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    But still, you should have walked out of the practical with a temporary airman certificate. That’s the way it worked at the 141 school I attended.
     
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  14. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    Yes. Ask the school to have your temp certificate sent to you or have it ready for you to pick it up. Did your IACRA status change?
     
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  15. TCABM

    TCABM En-Route

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    That is not the question, the question is where is your temp certificate with IRA privileges?

    See 14CFR 141.67 (e)

    (e) A pilot school that holds examining authority must maintain a record of all temporary airman certificates it issues, which consist of the following information:

    (1) A chronological listing that includes -

    (i) The date the temporary airman certificate was issued;

    (ii) The student to whom the temporary airman certificate was issued, and that student's permanent mailing address and telephone number;

    (iii) The training course from which the student graduated;

    (iv) The name of person who conducted the knowledge or practical test;

    (v) The type of temporary airman certificate or rating issued to the student; and

    (vi) The date the student's airman application file was sent to the FAA for processing for a permanent airman certificate.

    (2) A copy of the record containing each student's graduation certificate, airman application, temporary airman certificate, superseded airman certificate (if applicable), and knowledge test or practical test results; and

    (3) The records required by paragraph (e) of this section must be retained for 1 year and made available to the Administrator upon request. These records must be surrendered to the Administrator when the pilot school ceases to have examining authority.
     
  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ok, you'll be glad when you get your permanent. But have you got your temporary yet. What did they say about that when you talked them? Did you ask them 'where is my temporary. "...Talked to the school today. What I learned is the person who conducted my check ride is an FAA authorized internal examiner for the 141 flight school, instead of a full external DPE. So, this examiner is authorized to conduct IR check rides at the specific flight school I attend, but is not authorized to do check rides elsewhere..." should have nothing to do with this. You are the student and he is the DPE at the same flight school. Are you sure it was a checkride? Not like a stage check done to see if you are ready for the actual checkride?
     
  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    He's not a DPE. He's a instructor at the school with examining authority. Still, there's no excuse for no temporary. I did my certificate at a 141 school and was ready to fly as soon as the chief instructor (who did my ride) filled it out.
     
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  18. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    The flight school has been around about 15 years and until recently used an external DPE for all courses (like when I did my PPL there and my check ride for PPL was with external DPE). Recently one of the instructors earned examining authority for IRA. I'm the 3rd or 4th student examined by the internal guy - he's an experienced pilot/instructor, but he's new in that examiner role.

    Yes, I am sure this was my checkride and not a stage check, and of course, I asked about my temporary certificate. What the school told me is that since the examiner is new in the examiner role that the FAA is reviewing all paperwork before the temp certificates are issued (instead of letting him issue them immediately), and that I ought to have my temporary available to me within a few days. It sounds like they did not expect this to be the case when he became an examiner, they thought right away he'd be able to issue temp certs like one would expect, but who knows.

    Today is the last day I can fly for a month or two due to my own schedule, and conditions at my origin and destination are forecast VFR anyways, so as long as my temp and then permanent arrive as promised, I'm not too worried about it. If they don't, that's another story. Like I said, flight school has been around and I had a positive experience getting my PPL there, so I'm willing to give them a little grace.
     
  19. Jim K

    Jim K En-Route

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    That's really interesting. My cfii is one of the check airmen for the local 141 school. I'll have to ask him if he had a similar probationary period.
     
  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Strange, the usual FAA oversight is to let the guy write the temps and then recall them if they feel they weren't properly done. Hell, a temporary is, well, TEMPORARY anyhow.
     
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  21. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Blueorgreyskies, you may not act a PIC of an aircraft without a certificate
     
  22. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks, that would be useful info to have.

    Of course not. I won't hand over my (still valid and current) PPL until after today's flight. And I won't need to or be able to fly again for 1-2 months anyways for personal schedule reasons, so should be plenty of time for the new temp and/or permanent certs to come.
     
  23. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    He has his original license. He can be PIC vfr. You’re right - can’t be PIC in IFR ( I don’t think) until he gets some type of paper.
     
  24. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    A crazy process where you walk away from with no temp, but have your permanent cert.
     
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  25. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Agreed!
     
  26. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    Update? Inquiring minds want to know.....
     
  27. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Nothing yet. Will update once cert in hand.
     
  28. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pattern Altitude

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    Man that’s messed up! You should have been briefed about the delay prior to the checkride scheduling.
     
  29. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    Very odd. What did they say when you asked for the temp certificate? Did your IACRA status change ?
     
  30. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I wonder if @Brad Z has any insight into why the OP would not get a temporary certificate upon passing the IFR checkride, and how to expedite matters.
     
  31. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Not sure, I'd call the school's POI at the FSDO if the school is unable to help.
     
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  32. Devin

    Devin Filing Flight Plan

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    I mean - if you have the paperwork, you're good to go - start enjoying it as soon as possible! My first flight was a cloudy day KOWD to KMVY - and then the next one after that was all the way across the country ;)
     
  33. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The examiner didn't give him a temporary pilot certificate, so he didn't have the paperwork to act as a required pilot crew member. (Not sure whether the situation has been remedied yet.)
     
  34. Devin

    Devin Filing Flight Plan

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    Bizarre. Here's hoping that it doesn't turn into a seven month bureaucracy bender rectifying it.
     
  35. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Agreed! I didn't know the paperwork process would be any different from my PPL checkride. At first I was excited about an in-house examiner cause I have a tight schedule and it was much easier to get him scheduled than an external DPE. Had I known there was a difference, I would have just done the checkride with the same DPE I used for my PPL checkride. Same price... just would have had to wait a few days for the ride.

    No update in IACRA yet.

    Thanks for this. I'm glad to know there is a pathway in case of any issues. Even if I had my certificate in hand, I'm currently unable to fly because of my own schedule so I'm not in a rush. But, if this process takes more than a few weeks, I'll give the POI a call. Thanks for the guidance.

    You and me both!
     
  36. BlueOrGraySkies

    BlueOrGraySkies Filing Flight Plan

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    Update: Finally have my temp certificate in hand. Took one month after the checkride. Like I mentioned, I couldn't fly for the last month due to personal schedule reasons anyways, so I'm not too bothered about the delay. I am glad to finally have it. It appears my experience was unique and a bit uncommon. At least now I know!

    It was still a good experience overall with that flight school earning my PPL and IRA. For my multi engine I will probably do it in another state. I think it would be good for my learning to fly in some different areas, terrains, etc. But I'll put on some instrument hours before I start that next piece.

    Thanks all for your input!
     
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  37. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    Congrats!


    If it’s been a month, grab a safety Pilot and shoot a few approaches as soon as possible. IFR can go stale quick.
     
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  38. NorthEast Ohio

    NorthEast Ohio Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agreed. Don’t let your new knowledge fade. Get up and enjoy your new skills.
     
  39. sarangan

    sarangan Pattern Altitude

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    What proof do you have that you passed the IR checkride?
     
  40. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What I'm wondering is if that flight school or DPE is still failing to give applicants temporary certificates on the spot when they pass the instrument checkride.