Can an A-10 dogfight?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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Other then engaging helos, can an A-10 meaningfully engage other aircraft? More specifically other CAS aircraft like the Su-25 or atleast survive encounters with a 4th gen fighter like the Mig-29 long enough for other friendlies to arrive.

I ask cause I dug up an old PC game A-10 Cuba which is of course a bunch of A-10s out of Guantanamo hitting well armed guerrillas in Cuba. I can survive the ground threats in most missions. I can deal with the Su-25, but I can't do much when the Mig-29 shows up. Unless I get real lucky the best I can do is not die for a few minutes while friendly f-16s or f-15 are inbound or fly 50' NOE to "disappear".

And yes, I'd assume an a-10 vs. interceptor battle is unlikely in the real world with proper C4I.
 
The A-10 can turn hard and tight, but it's quite slow and is a big target. It carries the GAU-8 cannon, though not designed for air to air engagements I suppose it could be used in such a capacity. The AIM-9 Sidewinder would be it's best defense option against a Mig 29. So the only air defense weapons it carries are the Sidewinders, and they are short range missiles. If I were an A-10 pilot, I would definitely want some top cover if there were Migs present.
 
482px-GAU-8_in_A-10.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GAU-8_in_A-10.jpg

800px-GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg
 
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Tactic's. It all boils down to tactic's. If the interceptor pilot were to recklessly engage the A-10 in a turning fight i have no doubt the Warthog would turn inside anything and bring the big 'gun of instant destruction' into the fray. A wise interceptor pilot is going to use the speed he has to engage in slashing high speed passes or stand off & lob missles. The best defence the A-10 has is to turn into each pass for a head on shoot out. We shot down jet 262's with propeller planes 100 mph slower, it's tactic's.
 
Ddayle said:
Tactic's. It all boils down to tactic's. If the interceptor pilot were to recklessly engage the A-10 in a turning fight i have no doubt the Warthog would turn inside anything and bring the big 'gun of instant destruction' into the fray.
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But there lies that problem. AFAIK A-10s don't have historical gunsights or something similar and presumably the interceptor has a speed/acceleration advantage that would allow him to speed away if he's in a disadvantaged position. 30mm shells are good only if they hit.

A wise interceptor pilot is going to use the speed he has to engage in slashing high speed passes or stand off & lob missles. The best defence the A-10 has is to turn into each pass for a head on shoot out.
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And risk a head on missile hit?
 
The missles effectiveness is reduced at short range. We lost a lot of phantoms in viet nam who tryed to dogfight a mig using missles. The hue & cry from the combat zone brought back the gun on modern fighters.
 
Sure it can -- in the right environment. In a close-range, low-energy turning fight, the A-10 will eat most "real fighters" alive. Besides the gun, the tremendous agility of the A-10 would allow pointing the AIM-9 at just about anyone anywhere around within range. However, a good pilot in a true fighter can control the engagement so as to place the A-10 in a virtually indefensible position. Thus, you really wouldn't want to employ the A-10 as it is desgined to be used (the anti-armor/CAS role) unless you also had at least air superiority over the battlefield.

Of course, in every combat arena in which we've actually employed the A-10, we've had the luxury of air dominance (no less supremacy or superiority), so it has not been an issue. It might have been a different story had we fought the war the A-10 was intended for -- the "World War III, August, 1984" scenario. Then again, with what we know now, we might have held better sway over that battlefield than we thought we would at the time.
 
I believe there was one case of an A1E shooting down a Mig in RVN. Under the right circumstances, all things are possible, but highly improbable. Back in RVN, we actually trained to counter a MIG attack in the Cobra when MIGs were sighted in South VN. Anyone want to guess what the counter was <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I believe there was one case of an A1E shooting down a Mig in RVN.
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I can't remember if it was a Skyraider or an A-4 which got lucky and nailed a MiG with a Zuni 5-inch air-to-ground rocket. There was also one (again, not sure Spad or Scooter) which was getting chased by a MiG-17, flew straight at a karst ridge, and pulled up sharp in front of the ridge -- the Fresco couldn't make the turn as tight and bug-splatted itself on the ridge; the Navy pilot got credit for the kill. Low wing loading can have its advantages.
 
01-May-67: LCDR Theodore Swartz flying an A-4C with VA-76 off the BONNIE DICK got a MiG-17 while attacking Kep airfield in N. Vietnam---with 5" Zuni's of all things. He got a Silver Star and must have been a master improviser.

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/printthread.php?t=9670


Whatever it takes! :thumbsup:

Also referenced on that link is a -111 kill!

On 17 January 1991, a USAF EF-111 was credited with a kill against an Iraqi Dassault-Breguet Mirage F1, which it managed to maneuver into the ground, making it the first and only F-111 to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-111

Ron Levy said:
I can't remember if it was a Skyraider or an A-4 which got lucky and nailed a MiG with a Zuni 5-inch air-to-ground rocket. There was also one (again, not sure Spad or Scooter) which was getting chased by a MiG-17, flew straight at a karst ridge, and pulled up sharp in front of the ridge -- the Fresco couldn't make the turn as tight and bug-splatted itself on the ridge; the Navy pilot got credit for the kill. Low wing loading can have its advantages.
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20-Jun-65: (shared kill) when four MIDWAY VA-25 SPADs engaged several MiGs over North Vietnam--LT Clint Johnson flying an A-1H SPAD got a MiG-17 while teamed with wingman LTjg Charlie Hartman in another A-1H (20mm Cannon). I guess someone forgot to tell these SPAD drivers they were not flying fighters?

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/printthread.php?t=9670

I won't take a guess on the Cobra counter-measures....:)

Dave Siciliano said:
I believe there was one case of an A1E shooting down a Mig in RVN. Under the right circumstances, all things are possible, but highly improbable. Back in RVN, we actually trained to counter a MIG attack in the Cobra when MIGs were sighted in South VN. Anyone want to guess what the counter was <g>

Best,

Dave
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Ron Levy said:
Sure it can -- in the right environment. In a close-range, low-energy turning fight, the A-10 will eat most "real fighters" alive. Besides the gun, the tremendous agility of the A-10 would allow pointing the AIM-9 at just about anyone anywhere around within range. However, a good pilot in a true fighter can control the engagement so as to place the A-10 in a virtually indefensible position. Thus, you really wouldn't want to employ the A-10 as it is desgined to be used (the anti-armor/CAS role) unless you also had at least air superiority over the battlefield.

Of course, in every combat arena in which we've actually employed the A-10, we've had the luxury of air dominance (no less supremacy or superiority), so it has not been an issue. It might have been a different story had we fought the war the A-10 was intended for -- the "World War III, August, 1984" scenario. Then again, with what we know now, we might have held better sway over that battlefield than we thought we would at the time.
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I think I said pretty much the same thing. Another point about the Aim-9 Sidewinder. It is generally a rear quadrant weapon, but the new versions can lock onto inlet and leading edge heat giving it an all aspect capability. But in a low speed regime where the A-10 operates, I doubt it would work as far as a lock on to that weak an IR signature.
 
Steve said:
Also referenced on that link is a -111 kill!

On 17 January 1991, a USAF EF-111 was credited with a kill against an Iraqi Dassault-Breguet Mirage F1, which it managed to maneuver into the ground, making it the first and only F-111 to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-111
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Musta been a pretty lousy pilot in a Mirage F1 to be maneuvered into the ground by a 'Vark unless it was in the dark (the EF-111 has TF radar; the Mirage F1 does not).
 
I'd think the AV-8B would not be the best dogfighter. Just a guess, but with that huge heat signature right in the middle of the jet but with not nearly as much armor as the Hog, it might not stand up too well. But with that said, a Hog is just as good as an Eagle if it's in the right hands. The reverse is true, what good is a third or fourth gen fighter if the driver is sub par. Example: F-14's in the Iranian inventory. Even if they could get them airborne, i doubt they could employ them well enough to make an impact.
 
Considering that the F-15 was designed from the very beginning as an air superiority fighter, and the A-10 was designed from the very beginning as a close air support aircraft, I'd have to disagree with the notion that the two would be even remotely comparable in the ACM regime. Especially in light of the fact the during Operation Streak Eagle an F-15 went from brake release to 103,000 feet in just 3:28. The Eagle could engage/disengage at will.
 
AWACSEng said:
I'd think the AV-8B would not be the best dogfighter.
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Having been in an F-4 in a turning fight with an AV-8B, I can tell you that ain't true. That vectored thrust give is some amazing maneuverability. That jarhead ate our lunch even at our corner velocity. As for the Egojet, what Frank said -- if the Hog turns, all the F-15 need do is yo-yo him, and be waiting with a full bag of energy on the other side of the turn.
 
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Ron, your experience and expertise is far greater than mine, I was just thinking off the top of my noggin. As far as the Hog vs. Eagle thing, I agree. No contest, winner is the eagle. I was just saying, as demonstrated in earlier examples, the fighter doesn't always win. Anything can happen in air combat, but the odds are heavily in favor of the Air Sup jet.
 
Ron Levy said:
In the current US fighter/attack inventory, name one.
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B-2.

(I didn't say "current US fighter/attack plane" I said "plane.")

I think, however, that I need to do some hands-on experimentation to give a definitive answer. :D

Of course, the notion that streaking towards another plane at Mach 2, shooting him, and then running away like a scared little kid is a "dogfight"... Well, that ain't what I'd call a dogfight. When one sees the other coming while still outside of weapons range, and can use the particular advantages of their own airplane - THAT is a dogfight. Heat-seeking missiles are cheating, too. :p

That said, I don't think there's been what I consider a real dogfight in a long time. :no:
 
Face it- the days when planes merge and dogfight are probably gone. Most engagements are going to be orchestrated by an AWACS who sorts targets, and then the shot will come with an AMRAAM from beyond visual range. Why take the risk of a visual ID when you can shoot the other guy done without ever seeing him?
 
AcroBoy said:
Face it- the days when planes merge and dogfight are probably gone. Most engagements are going to be orchestrated by an AWACS who sorts targets, and then the shot will come with an AMRAAM from beyond visual range. Why take the risk of a visual ID when you can shoot the other guy done without ever seeing him?
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That's what they said in Vietnam, then Bosnia, then Iraq, all when visual recognition was required by the ROE rendering out of visual range missiles obsolete. However, I'll go one better. The days of manned fighter interception and dogfighting are over. Except the "pilots" will be on the ground playing with their joysticks in a high tech video game without nearly as much human consequence.
 
Well Anthony, a lot of folks agree with you. A friend that just retired as a MG in the Air Guard was just telling me that remotely piloted planes are close to being commercially feasible, but the public today wouldn't accept them. Then I brought up little stuff like GA folks flying without transponders, uncontrolled airspace without radar coverage and some other pesky things. Still a lot of issues to be worked out and I'm afraid some non-pilots are making decisions that may prove to have shortcomings when we come to depend on them.

In early RVN, didn't need to have guns on planes according to the experts; then, in actual combat, the missiles didn't work at the G forces being used. Back to guns. What do we do when the bad guys get stealth technology? How does AWACS control that encounter?

Best,

Dave
 
>Example: F-14's in the Iranian inventory. Even if they could get them airborne,
>i doubt they could employ them well enough to make an impact.

oh, they'll make an impact... <eg>
 
Ron Levy said:
B-2's don't do dogfights. Neither do KC-10's, C-17's, or B-52's. However, among the planes that do, I can't think of one in the inventory I'd less like to be in than an A-10.
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You left out the P3.
 
How many air-to-air kills does the P-3 have?
 
Well, if you want to count that, an A-10 out of Bentwaters/Woodbridge took out a Cessna 150 somewhere over East Anglia about 25 years ago, so they're even. But since neither was intentional, I don't think either counts, especially since the F-8 was the hitter and the Orion was the hittee -- you might as well give the karst ridge credit for that MiG-17, and in that case, the Earth is the leading ace of all time.
 
iirc, the A-10 had at least one air-to-air kill during Desert Storm
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, if you want to count that, an A-10 out of Bentwaters/Woodbridge took out a Cessna 150 somewhere over East Anglia about 25 years ago, so they're even. But since neither was intentional, I don't think either counts, especially since the F-8 was the hitter and the Orion was the hittee -- you might as well give the karst ridge credit for that MiG-17, and in that case, the Earth is the leading ace of all time.
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Hey, it took guts for that P-3 pilot to keep flying straight-and level. :smile:

When I was checking the date of the F-8/P-3 collision, I ran across a similar collision between a Norwegian P-3 and a Russian SU-27 in the late '80s. Both planes landed safely at their home bases. The P-3's damages were limited to a cut on a cowling, a broken prop, and the destruction of a dust-buster. One article says the Russians painted a "kill marking" (silouette of a P-3) on the Flanker, afterwards.

Ron
 
Ron Levy said:
B-2's don't do dogfights. Neither do KC-10's, C-17's, or B-52's. However, among the planes that do, I can't think of one in the inventory I'd less like to be in than an A-10.
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Define Dogfight. Is a dogfight between two "Fighters" only. Or is it two or more air to air armed aircraft fighting each other. That's

South East Asia, B-52s shot down two Migs. Dog fight or no?

South West Asia, An Iraqi F1 fires 4 missiles at 2 B-52s. The BUFFS maneuver, expend chaff, flares, and .50 caliber. The F1 disengages and heads east (to Iran most likely) and the B-52s continue on their way. Dogfight or not? Sure as heck felt like one!! BTW, the AWACS "controlling" the encounter had no idea it was going on.

I admire the A-10 and OA-37 drivers. It takes guts to fly a fighter/attack aircraft that can't out run the bombers. Plus using a calender instead of an airspeed indicator is really old school:smilewinkgrin:

I
 
To my thinking, a "dogfight" involves two aircraft maneuvering by visual reference to each other with the intent of killing the other. Standing off 80 miles and hosing off AIM-54's does not, in my mind, constitute a "dogfight" even if you get credit for a kill as a result.
 
Nobody uses the AIM-54 anymore! it's all abot the AIM-120, and they only stand off 30nm. ;)
 
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