"Call the Tower"

roncachamp said:
Yes, but the instruction issued required the pilot to enter downwind on the far side of the runway. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Click to expand...

Agree it didn't make a lot of sense, disagree that there was any requirement to enter downwind. According to the OP, it was just to report downwind at midfield. From the time the pilot got that instruction, to the time he reported the pilot was free to manage his own navigation to the reporting point.

The lack of the requirement to 'enter on a 45' or 'make standard entry' or 'overfly at xxxx feet' or anything else is the key.
 
docmirror said:
Agree it didn't make a lot of sense, disagree that there was any requirement to enter downwind. According to the OP, it was just to report downwind at midfield. From the time the pilot got that instruction, to the time he reported the pilot was free to manage his own navigation to the reporting point.

The lack of the requirement to 'enter on a 45' or 'make standard entry' or 'overfly at xxxx feet' or anything else is the key.
Click to expand...

On looking further I see:

If it was a Class D airport, then 91.129(f) says each pilot must "Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane;" A midfield crossing from a right downwind side would seem to require a moderate amount of flying that would not be in the direction required by the regulation. Looks to be a violation of the regulations if it was a Class D since, except for a right turn to get the airport off his left wing, he should have circled the airport in a counterclockwise direction to get to left downwind.
 
When a controller asks me to report a mid field left downwind, I am going to enter downwind.
 
The War College has numerous courses about picking the battles to fight. Those that are most likely to result in a stalemate at best aren't high on the list.
 
wabower said:
Dog simple IMO, but not the point. After 50+ years of doing this stuff I've never given ATC my phone number and asked them to call. I don't want to talk to anybody after landing other than about dinner reservations.
Click to expand...
I gave ATC a number to call just last spring (to get permission to execute a prearranged parking plan on a closed ramp). I thought radioing tower and asking them if they were prepared to copy a telephone number was quite hilarious.
 
I started reading this thread and was concerned when everyone started chastising the OP. Im with ronachamp on this one. I fail to see where the OP did anything wrong.
 
and what is wrong with:

What is wrong with just being co-operative? Move diagonally to the correct side at TPA (16 miles to 5 miles out, over 11 miles to do this, well below the departures) and enter/report at the discussed slot....or call him back!
 
bbchien said:
and what is wrong with:

What is wrong with just being co-operative? Move diagonally to the correct side at TPA (16 miles to 5 miles out, over 11 miles to do this, well below the departures) and enter/report at the discussed slot....or call him back!
Click to expand...

Nothing, that is what I would have done, just adjusted course to come into the downwind on the other side of the field outside the airport operations area.
 
Henning said:
Nothing, that is what I would have done, just adjusted course to come into the downwind on the other side of the field outside the airport operations area.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I only had 200 hrs TT and 50 in the RV when I was ask to do this.
 
docmirror said:
Agree it didn't make a lot of sense, disagree that there was any requirement to enter downwind. According to the OP, it was just to report downwind at midfield. From the time the pilot got that instruction, to the time he reported the pilot was free to manage his own navigation to the reporting point.
Click to expand...

The requirement to enter downwind is implicit in the instruction to report downwind.
 
Jim Logajan said:
If it was a Class D airport, then 91.129(f) says each pilot must "Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane;" A midfield crossing from a right downwind side would seem to require a moderate amount of flying that would not be in the direction required by the regulation. Looks to be a violation of the regulations if it was a Class D since, except for a right turn to get the airport off his left wing, he should have circled the airport in a counterclockwise direction to get to left downwind.
Click to expand...

It also says "unless otherwise required by ATC".
 
bbchien said:
and what is wrong with:

What is wrong with just being co-operative? Move diagonally to the correct side at TPA (16 miles to 5 miles out, over 11 miles to do this, well below the departures) and enter/report at the discussed slot....or call him back!
Click to expand...

Nothing.
 
roncachamp said:
The requirement to enter downwind is implicit in the instruction to report downwind.
Click to expand...

Then the ctlr was at fault for implying when he should have been explicit. From the OP, there were no statements of navigation(turn left, descend, turn right, climb, make std entry, etc), just to report when the pilot had reached a certain well defined location.

In fact, in the absence of navigation instruction, one could certainly argue that the instruction to report at a well known point was an implicit instruction to go direct to that specific point from the current location when the reporting instruction was received. Suppose the pilot in this case had flown right across the departure end, then made left turns(as is normal) to arrive at the midfield point to report. In this case, the ctlr could have had the pilot call and abuse him for flying though the departure corridor: "I told you to go to midfield and report, why did you fly though the departure corridor?"(not completely accurate)
 
docmirror said:
Then the ctlr was at fault for implying when he should have been explicit. From the OP, there were no statements of navigation(turn left, descend, turn right, climb, make std entry, etc), just to report when the pilot had reached a certain well defined location.
Click to expand...

Which required him to enter downwind.

In fact, in the absence of navigation instruction, one could certainly argue that the instruction to report at a well known point was an implicit instruction to go direct to that specific point from the current location when the reporting instruction was received. Suppose the pilot in this case had flown right across the departure end, then made left turns(as is normal) to arrive at the midfield point to report. In this case, the ctlr could have had the pilot call and abuse him for flying though the departure corridor: "I told you to go to midfield and report, why did you fly though the departure corridor?"(not completely accurate)
Click to expand...

True.
 
Parsing will never beat common sense.

docmirror said:
Then the ctlr was at fault for implying when he should have been explicit. From the OP, there were no statements of navigation(turn left, descend, turn right, climb, make std entry, etc), just to report when the pilot had reached a certain well defined location.

In fact, in the absence of navigation instruction, one could certainly argue that the instruction to report at a well known point was an implicit instruction to go direct to that specific point from the current location when the reporting instruction was received. Suppose the pilot in this case had flown right across the departure end, then made left turns(as is normal) to arrive at the midfield point to report. In this case, the ctlr could have had the pilot call and abuse him for flying though the departure corridor: "I told you to go to midfield and report, why did you fly though the departure corridor?"(not completely accurate)
Click to expand...
 
Report left downwind runway xx.
From my position, a right downwind would work better.
OK, report right downwind runway xx.
 
wabower said:
Parsing will never beat common sense.
Click to expand...

Huh? I'm a logical guy, so no parsing involved. Ctlr says to report midfield downwind for left traffic, I go there, and do that. Common sense. What would you do, fly in circles? Who's parsing now?
 
Henning said:
Nope, anytime:


(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.
Click to expand...
While that is technically correct, I've never heard of the FAA just doing random reexaminations of pilots. The only 709 rides I've ever heard of have occurred after the pilot's own actions brought Flight Standards' attention on him/herself by a third-party complaint (ATC or otherwise), or pranging the plane, or when examiner malfeasance is involved. However, that quoted section does negate any argument the pilot might make that whatever happened doesn't deserve reexamination.
 
I'd do what anybody with a lick of sense would know the controller wants me to do to be where he thinks I should be so I don't get a phone call.

docmirror said:
Huh? I'm a logical guy, so no parsing involved. Ctlr says to report midfield downwind for left traffic, I go there, and do that. Common sense. What would you do, fly in circles? Who's parsing now?
Click to expand...
 
RotorAndWing said:
Nor is bringing a knife to a gun fight.......:rolleyes:

Click to expand...
Of course, that one wasn't supposed to be a gunfight. The script called for an extended fight scene with whip versus sword. However, Ford was suffering from a case of "Tutankhamen Tummy," and at the point at which the scene starts, he felt the rising need to, uhhh...you know. He turned to the director and asked, "How about I just shoot him?", and the director said OK. As the scene ends you see Ford turning to his right and starting to say something, that "something" being that he was headed for the head.
 
Last edited:
wabower said:
I'd do what anybody with a lick of sense would know the controller wants me to do to be where he thinks I should be so I don't get a phone call.
Click to expand...

You think that flying around in the ATA when told to report at a certain point guarantees no phone call? The ctlr was wrong to admonish the pilot, and wrong that it was a PD. He knew it, the pilot knew it, we know it.

I've got a bridge for sale cheap this week. It's in Brooklyn.
 
And I've never been asked to call ATC. Which is more relevant? The pilot screwed the pooch.

docmirror said:
You think that flying around in the ATA when told to report at a certain point guarantees no phone call? The ctlr was wrong to admonish the pilot, and wrong that it was a PD. He knew it, the pilot knew it, we know it.

I've got a bridge for sale cheap this week. It's in Brooklyn.
Click to expand...
 
For all the people who think it's no problem to cross over midfield to get to the opposite downwind without being specifically instructed to do so by ATC, would you still do it in a situation where there were parallel runways?

If you think the instructions don't make sense then ask them.
 
Everskyward said:
For all the people who think it's no problem to cross over midfield to get to the opposite downwind without being specifically instructed to do so by ATC, would you still do it in a situation where there were parallel runways?

If you think the instructions don't make sense then ask them.
Click to expand...

How is that different from "Make left base entry to 27R?"

I get that instruction almost every time I go to KOAK. It makes some sense in light traffic (even though the A/FD says 27L is favored for landings, 27R for takeoffs), as that's where all the FBOs are.

Being told to cross another parallel runway isn't a rare occurrence. It happens all the time.

Unless the parallel runways are really long or the runways significantly offset (like KDEN), all traffic will be close to the ground at midfield, on both runways. Nothing is different. A towered airport always has two patterns for a given runway, and they go in the same places regardless of how many runways might be between them.
 
Last edited:
Everskyward said:
For all the people who think it's no problem to cross over midfield to get to the opposite downwind without being specifically instructed to do so by ATC, would you still do it in a situation where there were parallel runways?

If you think the instructions don't make sense then ask them.
Click to expand...

I don't see why parallel runways should change anything.
 
I disagree but it doesn't matter. I'm averse to phone calls that I don't like, and have caller ID to prevent them. Solving this simple puzzle is even easier than ignoring incoming calls from "out of area."
roncachamp said:
No more than the controller did.
Click to expand...
 
MAKG1 said:
How is that different from "Make left base entry to 27R?"
Click to expand...
It's different because you were specifically told "left" base. If the tell you to cross overhead midfield there is no problem.
 
Everskyward said:
It's different because you were specifically told "left" base. If the tell you to cross overhead midfield there is no problem.
Click to expand...

But, I had to cross 29 at the numbers (with landing jet traffic) and 27L extended centerline at typical approach altitudes to do that. And that's just completely ignoring 33, as no one seems to ever use it. I thought you said I should raise questions....

You might want to take a look at KOAK's airport diagram.
 
I think what this seems to show overall is the lack of standardization that Wayne talks about being a problem in so many places, and I'd agree. Class D has an ATIS unless it doesn't, use certain terms unless you're in New York, enter the pattern this way unless your local practices are that way.

Just don't forget to do an overhead break.
 
MAKG1 said:
But, I had to cross 29 at the numbers (with landing jet traffic) and 27L extended centerline at typical approach altitudes to do that. And that's just completely ignoring 33, as no one seems to ever use it. I thought you said I should raise questions....

You might want to take a look at KOAK's airport diagram.
Click to expand...
I learned to fly at KOAK so I know what the airport looks like.

You should raise questions if you think the entry is not logical or you want to negotiate doing something else. In your case ATC specifically told you "left" base so they probably made room for you or there wasn't any traffic you would conflict with. There wouldn't have been any problem in the OPs original situation if the tower had told him to cross midfield.
 
"You didn't tell me exactly, so I get to do what I want to do"
"neener neener neener".
This sting has the maturity of a kindergarden class.....

The idea is no surprises so things don't get noisy really quick......how does NOT clarifying, or DOING what you want without mutual understanding, forward safety?
 
bbchien said:
"You didn't tell me exactly, so I get to do what I want to do"
"neener neener neener".
This sting has the maturity of a kindergarden class.....

The idea is no surprises so things don't get noisy really quick......how does NOT clarifying, or DOING what you want without mutual understanding, forward safety?
Click to expand...

The OP was told to report midfield left downwind, that's pretty exact. He was better set up for a right downwind so it doesn't appear he did what he wanted to do.
 
So he needed to push the big black button and say, "may I have the opposite down wind, I'm better setup for it?"

Safety is better served.
Co-operate and negotiate.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top