C172N for $53K

[TangoWhiskey]

Man, with one owner and only 450 hours on a factory reman, this 172 looks very nice for the price. Radios are old, but that can be fixed later. The entry price looks right for SOMEONE (wish it was me!):

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/unprotected/specs/46132.html

 

[CJones]

Wow! I'll pass this along to my in-laws. Both my mother-in-law and father-in-law are planning on getting their PPL's this spring. My f-i-l has been shopping online for a nice intro plane for them to purchase to buzz around in and still be able to do some slow VFR XC's in later. This would fill their mission plan and even be useful for their FAVORITE son-in-law to take around the patch every once in a while.

 

[tonycondon]

that nice, but i dont really feel that any 172 is worth 53,000, i mean, heck, its a 172!

 

[CowboyPilot]

that nice, but i dont really feel that any 172 is worth 53,000, i mean, heck, its a 172!

Agree. I'd offer him $40K. Might get laughed at, but there are a lot of good deals out there on 172s. One owner is definitely a plus, factory re-man another. But $53K for a 172 of that lineage is a little steep.

I got my '67 Skyhawk with a runout engine and old radios for less than $20K. New avionics, fresh TBO'd motor and all the stuff I did while the engine was being rebuilt, I have around $35K in it and it makes a perfect "daily driver."

I don't even mind lazy short XCs in it--which is why I'm looking to update the interior comfort-wise.

I must be a little off. I actually LIKE Cessna 172's. A lot. To me, they epitomize what general aviation is all about--them and a Piper Cherokee. Just flat ol' fun and simple flying.

Lot simpler to fly and maintain than my Cardinal. The RV is fun, but it's barely a two-person plane, and only if your backseater is smaller than me.

Regards.

-JD

 

[ScottM]

When I was shopping planes I stopped in several times at Wisconsin Aviation. They had some of the highest priced aircraft around. That being said when you offer lower you need good reasons to offer lower.

The C172N is a fine airplane but this particular one has a very old stack that would be considered below average if the intent os for IFR flying. It will cost several thousand dollars to bring it up to speed plus one should seriously consider an AP if flying IFR.

The ad does not discuss the engine in detail. There are issues with the 0320-H2AD, if the re-manufactured engine is the same H2AD you should make sure the T-mod is done. The engine does not sell well and you could make some arguments about having to deal with that particular model as a reason to offer lower. There is an update to a 180hp engine and if that has been down this makes the plane worth more.

WA had this plane advertised once for a it over $55.7k, this show they have dropped the price at least once so you might be able to bargain as the seller becomes more desperate to sell.

 

[SteveR]

I would definately see if it has the H2AD engine. As Scott was saying, they developed a reputation for coming apart while running. There are a series of AD's and modifications that supposedly make them more reliable, but I will always be paranoid of them.

About two years ago I had an H2AD come apart on me while on a long cross country...we got very lucky and landed in a field with no damage (other than the engine which was a total loss...every cylinder, every piston, every valve, everything). It sucked an intake valve which put us on the ground immediately and with no warning whatsoever.

This was my friend's plane (withi 80hrs SMOH), so I don't know if all of the ADs & modifications had been complied with.

 

[NC Pilot]

I would definately see if it has the H2AD engine. As Scott was saying, they developed a reputation for coming apart while running. There are a series of AD's and modifications that supposedly make them more reliable, but I will always be paranoid of them.

The H2AD do not have a reputation for coming apart while running (or sitting still for that matter). There are two issues with the H2AD engine. One is the camshaft and lifters tend to spall. Well, so do most other Lycoming camshafts. The difference is that with the "H" engine you can pull the lifter out and inspect the cam and lifter. On othere Lyc. engines the only time you see the lifter is when the engine is overhauled.

The other issue is the dual magneto set up. Other engines have this set up as well and I don't like it either, but with good maintenance the risk can be minimized.

Properly maintained and flown often this engine can make TBO fairly easily, but plan on replacing the cam on overhaul.

 

[ScottM]

I would definately see if it has the H2AD engine. As Scott was saying, they developed a reputation for coming apart while running. There are a series of AD's and modifications that supposedly make them more reliable, but I will always be paranoid of them.

About two years ago I had an H2AD come apart on me while on a long cross country...we got very lucky and landed in a field with no damage (other than the engine which was a total loss...every cylinder, every piston, every valve, everything). It sucked an intake valve which put us on the ground immediately and with no warning whatsoever.

This was my friend's plane (withi 80hrs SMOH), so I don't know if all of the ADs & modifications had been complied with.

I have never heard of them coming apart and would love to hear more about your experiences.

The H2AD do not have a reputation for coming apart while running (or sitting still for that matter). There are two issues with the H2AD engine. One is the camshaft and lifters tend to spall. Well, so do most other Lycoming camshafts. The difference is that with the "H" engine you can pull the lifter out and inspect the cam and lifter. On othere Lyc. engines the only time you see the lifter is when the engine is overhauled.

The other issue is the dual magneto set up. Other engines have this set up as well and I don't like it either, but with good maintenance the risk can be minimized.

Properly maintained and flown often this engine can make TBO fairly easily, but plan on replacing the cam on overhaul.

These are the issues I was referring to. It is my understanding that problems will be very noticeable on H2AD engine that are cold started, much more noticeable than on other engines. Since this plane spent a lot of time in the cold Wisconsin/Illinois areas I would be a little wary and make sure it has been throughly modified and checked out.

 

[SteveR]

The H2AD do not have a reputation for coming apart while running (or sitting still for that matter).

A quick search on the internet indicates otherwise. They do have that reputation among a lot of people, deserved or not. There are plenty of articles on the internet discussing it. Having a complete engine failure in flight due to valvetrain issues tainted my opinion of them...again, deserved or not. Now the general consensus seems to be that the issues can be dealt with effectively (as you mentioned), but it is still something someone needs to look closely at when considering a plane with an H2AD.

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/btn172/btn9405.html

...O-320-H2AD engine out front. That particular model of engine, installed in 172s from 1977 through 1980, quickly earned a reputation for munching down camshafts and lifters.

 

[SteveR]

I have never heard of them coming apart and would love to hear more about your experiences.

Here is a summary of the event that I wrote shortly afterwards. I haven't updated it since then, and it doesn't have many details on the actual problem, as we didn't know what caused it when I wrote this:

http://www.wotelectronics.com/engineout/

The engine was taken apart, but I never got to speak with the mechanic directly or see the engine for myself. I was told that one of the valve keepers came loose, which would explain what happened, but doesn't explain why that keeper came loose. I don't see how that would have been related to any spalling issues, unless the spalling was bad enough to allow some slack in the valvetrain. I suspect that other parts of the engine would have failed due to the metal circulating in the oil before there would be that much slack in the valvetrain though. I don't know how much metal was found in the oil screen, which would tell us a lot.

I have theorized that it could have been a pulled or loose rocker stud, allowing the pushrod to come loose, or some similar issue with the valvetrain. I really should have gone to look at the engine myself, but all I ever got was secondhand information. What I do know is that the engine completely destroyed itself in a matter of a few seconds. Valve & piston pieces from one cylinder fell into the intake spider, and were then sucked into the remaining three cylinders, which destroyed all of them. It was so bad the throttle even jammed in place just seconds after the failure (piston & valve pieces fell into the carburetor).

 

[tdager]

I have had that plane on my "watch list" for awhile now. I am sure you can get it for cheaper.

One issue for me, as it will be my first plane, is the avionics stack. It is ANCIENT and would cost serious AU's to upgrade. I plane on getting my IFR cert after we get our plane and at the least I want KX-155's and other items...still older but MUCHO better than the bricks in this thing.

 

[ScottM]

Here is a summary of the event that I wrote shortly afterwards. I haven't updated it since then, and it doesn't have many details on the actual problem, as we didn't know what caused it when I wrote this:

http://www.wotelectronics.com/engineout/

The engine was taken apart, but I never got to speak with the mechanic directly or see the engine for myself. I was told that one of the valve keepers came loose, which would explain what happened, but doesn't explain why that keeper came loose. I don't see how that would have been related to any spalling issues, unless the spalling was bad enough to allow some slack in the valvetrain. I suspect that other parts of the engine would have failed due to the metal circulating in the oil before there would be that much slack in the valvetrain though. I don't know how much metal was found in the oil screen, which would tell us a lot.

I have theorized that it could have been a pulled or loose rocker stud, allowing the pushrod to come loose, or some similar issue with the valvetrain. I really should have gone to look at the engine myself, but all I ever got was secondhand information. What I do know is that the engine completely destroyed itself in a matter of a few seconds. Valve & piston pieces from one cylinder fell into the intake spider, and were then sucked into the remaining three cylinders, which destroyed all of them. It was so bad the throttle even jammed in place just seconds after the failure (piston & valve pieces fell into the carburetor).

Wow good job. How does one go about getting a plane that is broken out the area? How long and how $$$ did that take?

 

[SteveR]

Wow good job. How does one go about getting a plane that is broken out the area? How long and how $$$ did that take?

Insurance paid to get the plane home. Air Salvage of Dallas did the work...they had to put it on a truck. It only takes them around an hour to get the wings off something as common as a 172. Luckily it was not far from a road, it would have been much more difficult if it was an isolated area.

 

[SCCutler]

Re: the radios, the one on top is a TKM, not necessarily ancient and definitely not original. TKMs are, from my general understanding, soundly-built radios, even if they don't cost a lot.

Still, rest of the avionics are old and tired. Good negotiation fodder.

 

[EdFred]

Wow! I'll pass this along to my in-laws. Both my mother-in-law and father-in-law are planning on getting their PPL's this spring. My f-i-l has been shopping online for a nice intro plane for them to purchase to buzz around in and still be able to do some slow VFR XC's in later. This would fill their mission plan and even be useful for their FAVORITE son-in-law to take around the patch every once in a while.

Heck, they could have my Cherokee 180 for just a shade more, and I've got better radios.

 

[NC Pilot]

A quick search on the internet indicates otherwise. They do have that reputation among a lot of people, deserved or not. There are plenty of articles on the internet discussing it. Having a complete engine failure in flight due to valvetrain issues tainted my opinion of them...again, deserved or not. Now the general consensus seems to be that the issues can be dealt with effectively (as you mentioned), but it is still something someone needs to look closely at when considering a plane with an H2AD.

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/btn172/btn9405.html

Yes, as I pointed out they have a reputation of munching camshafts, but not one "of coming apart when running".

I used to own a 1977 172, so I know of what I speak here. The conversion to 180 HP is the best thing that can be done with this plane and it becomes one of the best 172's around when that conversion is done.

BTW, good story and good job of getting the plane on the ground.

 

[SteveR]

Yes, as I pointed out they have a reputation of munching camshafts, but not one "of coming apart when running".

How far can you go once spalling starts before catastrophic failure? 2 hours? 10? 100? I'm assuming that is something you would catch when you check the oil filter after an oil change? If so, I guess that means you need to cut open the oil filter every time you change the oil?

I've gotten the impression that there are valvetrain issues (other than spalling) with this engine that didn't exist with the E2D. Is that valid?

 

[Keith Lane]

Re: the radios, the one on top is a TKM, not necessarily ancient and definitely not original. TKMs are, from my general understanding, soundly-built radios, even if they don't cost a lot.

I've got 2.
Comm1 MX12 with MC60 VOR Head (I love the VOR head)
Comm2 MX11, and I use an old Narco Nav 11 as backup VOR.
I recently had the MX11 repaired for a flat rate fee of $175.00.
Overall I have been pleased with both radios, but the tracking mode of the MC60 is worth a lot to me. Tells you what radial you're on. You put a second VOR frequency in standby side and switch back and forth. A very easy way of locating yourself or lets you know when you'vr arrived at the intersection of two radials. I think th MC60 was $475, new in the box.

 

[NC Pilot]

These are the issues I was referring to. It is my understanding that problems will be very noticeable on H2AD engine that are cold started, much more noticeable than on other engines. Since this plane spent a lot of time in the cold Wisconsin/Illinois areas I would be a little wary and make sure it has been throughly modified and checked out.

True, but I believe the real issue with valve train wear on the "H" engine is that it is possible to easliy inspect the valve train for wear, where on other engines you need to, at least, remove a cylinder and possibly split the case to see the camshaft. Therefore, being easier to see the problem may, in fact make it such that the problem is noticed more and noted more, where in fact it is not occurring any more frequently.

 

[Dean]

Re: the radios, the one on top is a TKM, not necessarily ancient and definitely not original. TKMs are, from my general understanding, soundly-built radios, even if they don't cost a lot.

I have had two TKM MX300 and will disagree with you, both were junk and should be used only for wheel chocks.