C172 & Kids as Passengers

steamee

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Steamee
I want to know is whether I'd need some kind of supplemental restraint system in the rear seats of late model C172SP to take my nephews. Having read the thread on booster seats here and some referenced ACs and the FAR I'm now more confused than when I started.

One is 46"/42 pounds and the other 40"/33 pounds.

According to this FAA site one boy might need a CRS the other would be fine with the regular seat belts. Anyone have further advice or more information about this topic as it pertains to GA?
 
Use their car seats. That's what I do with my kids in my 182.
 
If they use car seats in the car, use the same seats in the airplane. The problem occurs if they use booster seats in the car, because booster seats are specifically prohibited in aircraft by the FAA, and they have research to show why booster seats are dangerous with standard aircraft restraint systems.
 
Thanks! That's the kind of straight forward answer I needed.
 
If they use car seats in the car, use the same seats in the airplane. The problem occurs if they use booster seats in the car, because booster seats are specifically prohibited in aircraft by the FAA, and they have research to show why booster seats are dangerous with standard aircraft restraint systems.

Unless they are marked as approved for aircraft. I'm in the market for such a device.

With regards to the OPs question - what regulation requires they have a child restraint at all? Why not just the seatbelt?
 
I don't think any extra anything is required, however IF you do use something, you're supposed to use the right equipment. Most people I know just pull the child seat out of the car and stick it in the plane.
 
Unless they are marked as approved for aircraft.
Correct, but the only booster seats so marked will be the aircraft-specific child seats you can buy from the aircraft manufacturer or other FAA-approved supplier.
[(iii) That the seat or child restraint device furnished by the operator was approved by the FAA through Type Certificate, Supplemental Type Certificate.
(iv) That the seat or child restraint device furnished by the operator, or one of the persons described in paragraph (a) (3) (iii) (A) of this section, was approved by the FAA in accordance with Sec. 21.305(d) or Technical Standard Order C-100b, or a later version.
I'm in the market for such a device.
You won't find anything like that on any automotive booster seat, and I don't know of any such seat for installation as part of the back seat of a 172. There is a child seat for 172's you can add to the baggage area, but I know that's not what you want.

With regards to the OPs question - what regulation requires they have a child restraint at all? Why not just the seatbelt?
Nothing in the regulations requires they use a child restraint in airplanes. However, putting a small child under an adult seat belt is not going to provide the level of safety I know you want. If you put them a seat with a shoulder harness, the harness will take their head off in a crash, and the FAA does not make any exceptions to the requirement to use an available shoulder harness "during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing" by passengers, even for short kids. If you put them in a seat without a shoulder harness (like the back seat of your 172), the kid is much narrower than the seat belt, and will not be as effectively restrained as an adult, but it's still better than the alternatives even if not optimal.

Read more on this in FAA AC 120-87B. Here is the FAA's concern about booster seats:
c. Booster Seats. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]A key concern for backless booster seats used in airplane seats is the combined effect of seat back breakover and impact of an adult seated behind the child. Booster seats may expose the child occupant to potential abdominal injury due to the combined effects of these forces. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
Note the emphasis on combined effects. While still prohibited by the regulations, I personally believe that if there is no adult seated behind the child (i.e., front seat with nobody in the back seat, or in the back seat with no luggage piled up against the seat back), a child using the installed seat belt and a booster seat approved for automotive use is probably a lot safer than a child just strapped to the existing seat with the installed seat belt.

How you balance the risk to your child against the risk of the FAA catching you is your concern, not mine. However, keep in mind that the legal risks go beyond your ticket, and include the potential for child endangerment charges and trouble in a custody fight if it ever comes to that. Fortunately, my son is 31 and a lot bigger than me, so I don't have to worry about the problem (at least until Ben presents me with a grandchild, I should only live so long).
 
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I don't think any extra anything is required, however IF you do use something, you're supposed to use the right equipment. Most people I know just pull the child seat out of the car and stick it in the plane.

I agree, as long as they are YOUR kids I wouldn't worry too much about "aircraft specific child seats" I think putting them in a the same car seat they use in the car they rode to the airport in is good enough. If you were flying charters or with someone else's kids and were worried about liability, then maybe you look at other options, like leaving the kids on the ground. :D
 
I agree, as long as they are YOUR kids I wouldn't worry too much about "aircraft specific child seats" I think putting them in a the same car seat they use in the car they rode to the airport in is good enough. If you were flying charters or with someone else's kids and were worried about liability, then maybe you look at other options, like leaving the kids on the ground. :D

EXCEPT if you have one where the side bolsters for the head are too narrow to allow the child to wear headsets.
 
EXCEPT if you have one where the side bolsters for the head are too narrow to allow the child to wear headsets.

Headsets: I thought of this a bit later too. I assume a 4 or even a 6 year old's head might not be big enough for a headset to fit properly. Just go with earplugs?
 
Headsets: I thought of this a bit later too. I assume a 4 or even a 6 year old's head might not be big enough for a headset to fit properly. Just go with earplugs?

We bought child headsets
 
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