C/C++ in aviation

Richard

Richard

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Anyone here familiar with C/C++ for autopilots or data link to ground stations? My question is what would constitute a "good working knowledge" for flight crew WRT the programming?
 
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I'm trying to parse your question.

I think I'm parsing it incorrectly since I don't think flight crew need programming knowledge as I'm guessing one wouldn't write, compile, and link code while in the air. If something's not working, I wouldn't try to change the code while flying.

If testing something, it's helpful to know something about code and maybe the program itself (based on my experience programming and testing lab equipment) to help narrow down a bug source, but the programmers are the ones to track the bug down and fix it.
 
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Richard said:
Anyone here familiar with C/C++ for autopilots or data link to ground stations? My question is what would constitute a "good working knowledge" of flight crew WRT the programming?
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Huh? I don't understand the context. Why would any flight crew need any knowledge of the programming environment? A bit more explanation, please?
 
Maybe if you could provide the context for your question...

My first inclination is that you're encountering this text some place that is referring to the ability of a flight crew to "program" avionics, where "program" is used in the same sense as "I don't know how to 'program' my VCR, so it just blinks 12:00 all the time".
-harry
 
Richard said:
Anyone here familiar with C/C++ for autopilots or data link to ground stations? My question is what would constitute a "good working knowledge" of flight crew WRT the programming?
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Talking about ACARS?
 
Taking an alternate read - are you asking what a person applying for a programming job with Garmin/Honeywell/whoever should know about flight crew tasks to make them a good candidate?
 
Sorry for not including the context. The context is I am again applying for several UAV crew positions and other DoD contracts. Several positions advertise the candidate would have a "good working knowledge" of what I described.
 
mantakos said:
... where "program" is used in the same sense as "I don't know how to 'program' my VCR, so it just blinks 12:00 all the time".
-harry
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laughing...beer out my nose....

Honestly, Harry. Do you write technical manuals or maybe those "...for dummies" books?
 
That sounds like an interesting pilot/avionics programmer job.

I would be honest about your experience with C/C++. If you don't have any and are trying to get some before then well, I'd google for some on-line tutorials. I'm sure there's a lot of people here to help with your homework.

If you have C experience but not the avionics and data link, I'm not sure where to research it.

Joe
 
The stickler is they ask for this: STANAG 4586 CUCS software Operating Environment with VSM integration.

Is that proprietory? Other than the VSM, I think so.
 
I can't see where programming knowledge would be useful for the actual UAV crew. I could see there being some positions where they might want someone who can read and understand code while being able to understand the aviation side. If you don't have any programming experience then that's probably not the position for you.

As far as the environment - yes that is more or less a proprietary thing you would never encounter unless you were programming UAV software to be NATO compliant or something.

If they're seriously expecting you to be able to code in C/C++ in that proprietary environment it's rather unlikely you'd be able to meet their expectations without months of serious preparation. Learning a new language is one thing - learning to program is a lengthy process that requires the development of a whole different kind of thinking.
 
Learning to program in C/C++ should be easy for anyone with a CS degree or background in programming. However, writing maintainable and reliable code and working with DoD or Aviation companies on hardware and specs like this is a whole different issue.

I still am not exactly sure what the question is...
 
timrj said:
Learning to program in C/C++ should be easy for anyone with a CS degree or background in programming. However, writing maintainable and reliable code and working with DoD or Aviation companies on hardware and specs like this is a whole different issue.

I still am not exactly sure what the question is...
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I'm just guessing but assuming these are "desired" qualification for a pilot position, it may be more of a liaison position. Someone who knows the problems who can talk to the techno-squids rather than someone to write maintainable, mission critical software.

That's why I think being honest and having some familiarity could be worth the effort.

On the other hand maybe I should apply for the job if Richard doesn't get it. I don't have any familiarity with STANAG but I do have a lot of networking and C++ background. PMD is a short flight, lousy commute though from home.
 
Areeda said:
... more of a liaison position. Someone who knows the problems who can talk to the techno-squids rather than someone to write maintainable, mission critical software.
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That's what I'm thinking. Although it does involve active crew in a flying position.
 
I don't see anything there stating you're supposed to be a C/C++ programmer?
 
Richard said:
Sorry for not including the context. The context is I am again applying for several UAV crew positions and other DoD contracts. Several positions advertise the candidate would have a "good working knowledge" of what I described.
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aHA!

Quite honestly, unless you're part of the development team and you'll be the "stakeholder" or customer, there's really no need for you to have any C/C++ experience.

On the other hand, if you are applying for a designer/developer position, then I understand the need for some crew knowledge - what they really want is a hot-shot C/C++ programmer who understands real-time programming in a specialized environment and maybe a bit of the end-product operational use. The only reason to have some "crew" knowledge is if you are going to be involved with the user interface.

Hm....if I were interested in moving to (pick one: Long Beach, Sunnyvale, Mohave, ...) I'd apply, but BTDT.

Also - if you don't already have one, make sure you can get a clearance. Remember to tell the truth. DOD forgives much as long as 'fess up.
 
Areeda said:
I'm just guessing but assuming these are "desired" qualification for a pilot position, it may be more of a liaison position. Someone who knows the problems who can talk to the techno-squids rather than someone to write maintainable, mission critical software.

That's why I think being honest and having some familiarity could be worth the effort.

On the other hand maybe I should apply for the job if Richard doesn't get it. I don't have any familiarity with STANAG but I do have a lot of networking and C++ background. PMD is a short flight, lousy commute though from home.
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Knowing C++ as a domain expert will not help the architects, designers or coders do their job better. The converse is true - knowing the domain WILL help the tech side a great deal.



I don't see C++ anywhere at all in that job posting.
 
Richard said:
The stickler is they ask for this: STANAG 4586 CUCS software Operating Environment with VSM integration.

Is that proprietory? Other than the VSM, I think so.
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http://www.instrumentcontrol.se/products/nato

This is the API (or SDK or whatever acronym you prefer) that allows the programmer to talk to the other end of the cable in a previously-defined manner.

STANAG is the NATO abbreviation for Standardization Agreement
"provide common operational and administrative procedures and logistics, so one member nation's military may use the stores and support of another member's military"

In other words, all the NATO military have agreed to have all their toys play nice together. For more gory details

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG

If you are a C/C++ programmer, it's just another set of function calls.
 
Richard said:
Here is the job posting.

http://hostedjobs.openhire.com/epos...jobid=305446&company_id=15840&jobBoardId=1112

Indeed.com is the host. "Flight Crew" was used for key word search.

Make your own determination.
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This is not a programming job, nor does it require anything other than being able to discuss in general terms the requirements of the 4586 CUCS programming interface. In fact, all you'll probably need to know is how to read the spec (and there will be a summary for non-geeks, don't worry), then how to read the requirements/design/test results of whatever is built then confirm that the end product is in compliance with the 4586 CUCS spec.

Basic computer skills => can you use Microsoft Office and Windows.

I love this part:
"extended deployments to hazardous duty areas" and "Management of ER/MP flight crew members to include timecard and expense report accountability"

uh-huh. While under fire, you better be able to confirm that the flight crew hasn't fudged on the timecard...

Trust me, it aint rocket science. I know, I used to be one.

If you have any UAV background, go for it!
 
jesse said:
I don't see anything there stating you're supposed to be a C/C++ programmer?
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Me neither. I don't know why we're even talking about C/C++. This requirement seems pretty clearly to be about being a knowledgeable user of some computer system, not a software developer.
-harry
 
murphey said:
Also - if you don't already have one, make sure you can get a clearance. Remember to tell the truth. DOD forgives much as long as 'fess up.
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My understanding is there is no way to apply for a clearance except through the employer. Typically, you are hired into the position and have a specified time to gain the clearance.

If you know otherwise, please share with me either in this thread or via PM.
 
jesse said:
I don't see anything there stating you're supposed to be a C/C++ programmer?
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What is the proprietory software written in? My OP didn't mention being a programmer. The job listing only asks the applicant have a good working knowlege of.
 
Richard said:
What is the proprietory software written in? My OP didn't mention being a programmer. The job listing only asks the applicant have a good working knowlege of.
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The description says nothing about having a good working knowledge of the C/C++ programming languages. The only way you're going to have a good working knowledge of them is if you're a developer that's used them.

You might hire a secretary that needs a good working knowledge of Microsoft Office. That doesn't mean that she's supposed to have a good working knowledge of C++.

With a decent technical understanding to start and some review of that standard you should be fine.
 
Richard said:
My understanding is there is no way to apply for a clearance except through the employer. Typically, you are hired into the position and have a specified time to gain the clearance.

If you know otherwise, please share with me either in this thread or via PM.
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I didn't say you should get the clearance (and you're right, you can't) just that you should be able to qualify for it. Is there something questionable in your past? If so, be able to explain it.

Shoulda seen the retired FBI agent's face when he asked me "and just what would you do if someone held a gun and threatened to kill you?" My reply - "get me lots of paper and pencil and I'll write down EVERYTHING I know! I'm not in that part of the business!"

Yes, I got the clearance. I signed my civil rights away when I was 26.
 
jesse said:
You might hire a secretary that needs a good working knowledge of Microsoft Office. That doesn't mean that she's supposed to have a good working knowledge of C++.
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So my latent engineer characteristic over complicated the thing.

With a decent technical understanding to start and some review of that standard you should be fine.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence.
 
A good working knowledge of the STANAG 4586 CUCS software Operating Environment with VSM integration is highly desirable.
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That usually means you know how use that equipment in that environment.

Not how to program it.
 
murphey said:
I didn't say you should get the clearance (and you're right, you can't) just that you should be able to qualify for it. Is there something questionable in your past? If so, be able to explain it.

Shoulda seen the retired FBI agent's face when he asked me "and just what would you do if someone held a gun and threatened to kill you?" My reply - "get me lots of paper and pencil and I'll write down EVERYTHING I know! I'm not in that part of the business!"

Yes, I got the clearance. I signed my civil rights away when I was 26.
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There's always the chance for a hidden gotcha. My Dad lost his top secret clearance when I got married. It seems that my father-in-law's mother was living in a nursing home in East Berlin. No matter that all of believed her to be dead and buried in West Germany.
 
AuntPeggy said:
There's always the chance for a hidden gotcha. My Dad lost his top secret clearance when I got married. It seems that my father-in-law's mother was living in a nursing home in East Berlin. No matter that all of believed her to be dead and buried in West Germany.
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When I was going for "an upgrade" to my clearance, I asked my father if there was anything I should know...he didn't answer for a while....
 
RMCN172RG said:
That usually means you know how use that equipment in that environment.

Not how to program it.
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Something that specific in a job requirements usually means that they already know who they're going to hire but had to advertise the position to conform some some contract requirement.

Good luck though...
 
FWIW, Where I work, the only reliable "documentation" is the @*(&^%* C code itself. The people who use it (tune the controls for particular vehicles) don't have to be able to write C, but they have to be able to comprehend what was written.
 
Richard said:
My understanding is there is no way to apply for a clearance except through the employer. Typically, you are hired into the position and have a specified time to gain the clearance.

If you know otherwise, please share with me either in this thread or via PM.
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I think Murphy was saying that you should look for a job that gets you a clearance, not that you should go get one yourself.

But yes, if you don't have a job that requires a clearance, then you have no "need to know," which is what gets you a clearance.
 
murphey said:
When I was going for "an upgrade" to my clearance, I asked my father if there was anything I should know...he didn't answer for a while....
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One of my coworkers was denied a clearance because he "forgot" to report that he had been convicted of providing alcohol to minors in college. The guvmint provides zero leeway on that kind of stuff.
 
COFlyBoy said:
One of my coworkers was denied a clearance because he "forgot" to report that he had been convicted of providing alcohol to minors in college. The guvmint provides zero leeway on that kind of stuff.
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It's been my experience that they're much less forgiving of what you "forgot" to tell them than the things you did and fessed up about. I've seen people get clearances with all manner of juvenile delinquency on their records but were up front about it on the app and it made it through. Times maybe be different now than back in my day though...
 
PittsDriver said:
It's been my experience that they're much less forgiving of what you "forgot" to tell them than the things you did and fessed up about. I've seen people get clearances with all manner of juvenile delinquency on their records but were up front about it on the app and it made it through. Times maybe be different now than back in my day though...
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Yeah, my dad got his top secret clearance even though he was convicted of (shudder) drinking as a minor.:hairraise: Thing is, he fessed up to it.
 
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