Buying Plane Questions

[SkyHog]

Ok - so I need to justify buying a plane to a few people....of course, I haven't picked the plane yet, but that will come later.

Money first:
Renting a plane here runs about $112 an hour for the newer 172s with rear seats. There's also the fuel surcharge with right now is about $5 an hour. Flying 75 hours a year, that comes to $8775 a year.

If I purchase a plane for $35,000 (which is the middle of my price range), and break it down cost wise, that works out to almost 4 years of renting at the afformentioned rate. After that, I'm saving money. Of course, there's costs of annuals and maintenence, and that's where my first question comes in:

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?
2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

Then comes hangering or tieing down. If I hanger, a T-Hanger at my airport runs about $2900 a year. Tiedown is about $540 a year.

Safety:
Obviously, renting a plane has the danger of flying a plane that any number of...for lack of a better term...dumbasses have flown, slamming it down to the ground, landing with crazy sideloads, exceeding Va for maneuvers, etc. If I own my plane, then it would be only I that I'd have to worry about, and if I do any of the stupid listed above, at least I'll know about it.

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

Pride:
Of course, owning a plane means that I have my own plane. That's awesome. I'd love it and take care of it...well...let's just say that I would love that plane forever. Renting is cool, and still makes me feel good, but I can't even imagine pulling out my keychain and having an airplane key on it. Makes me shudder in joy thinking about it.

4. Am I missing anything?

 

[Tom-D]

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

Pride:
Of course, owning a plane means that I have my own plane. That's awesome. I'd love it and take care of it...well...let's just say that I would love that plane forever. Renting is cool, and still makes me feel good, but I can't even imagine pulling out my keychain and having an airplane key on it. Makes me shudder in joy thinking about it.

4. Am I missing anything?

The one and only reason to own, is the one you mentioned above.

All the rest is just trying to rationalize the money spent.

 

[Brian Austin]

Ok - so I need to justify buying a plane to a few people....of course, I haven't picked the plane yet, but that will come later.

Money first:
Renting a plane here runs about $112 an hour for the newer 172s with rear seats. There's also the fuel surcharge with right now is about $5 an hour. Flying 75 hours a year, that comes to $8775 a year.

If I purchase a plane for $35,000 (which is the middle of my price range), and break it down cost wise, that works out to almost 4 years of renting at the afformentioned rate. After that, I'm saving money. Of course, there's costs of annuals and maintenence, and that's where my first question comes in:

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?
2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

Then comes hangering or tieing down. If I hanger, a T-Hanger at my airport runs about $2900 a year. Tiedown is about $540 a year.

You're not "saving money" after the $35K because you've got two types of costs involved: fixed and variable. If you've got access to a spreadsheet application (Excel, Lotus, Works, whatever) and understand how to set it up, sit down and really figure it out. I did. A $35K plane (I used a Stinson 108-2 or -3 as my base), covered tiedown (hangar waiting list is way too long), estimated insurance (with the help of a nice lady at AOPAIA for non-quoting purposes), fuel, engine reserve, fabric reserve, annual estimate, and avionics upgrade reserve. My breakeven point was just under 7 hours per month.

In other words, if I flew 7 or more hours a month, I paid LESS per hour than if I rented. Otherwise, I paid MORE per hour.

Fixed costs = tiedown, insurance, plane (loan in my scenario)
Variable costs = fuel, oil, annual, and the reserves. If I underestimated, it came out of one of the reserves or I simply would pay more.

I know I'm missing something but can't think of it at the moment. The beer isn't helping here.

Safety:
Obviously, renting a plane has the danger of flying a plane that any number of...for lack of a better term...dumbasses have flown, slamming it down to the ground, landing with crazy sideloads, exceeding Va for maneuvers, etc. If I own my plane, then it would be only I that I'd have to worry about, and if I do any of the stupid listed above, at least I'll know about it.

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

Yup. You don't REALLY know what that plane has been through. A thorough annual will catch a LOT of issues but not everything. And forget a pre-buy. Do an annual inspection so it conforms to FARs. I learned that from the fine folks here.

The good news is that you'll PROBABLY be fine with it afterward...but you can't tell. Yes, the rentals have their issues, too. If you're paying $112/hr, you're probably into late model Skyhawks? Maybe at a bigger flight school? Personally, my FBO/school rents similar planes and I'd trust their maintenance over just about anyone's. Those planes are in good shape and well maintained.

Pride:
Of course, owning a plane means that I have my own plane. That's awesome. I'd love it and take care of it...well...let's just say that I would love that plane forever. Renting is cool, and still makes me feel good, but I can't even imagine pulling out my keychain and having an airplane key on it. Makes me shudder in joy thinking about it.

4. Am I missing anything?

Well, you can't argue with that one.

Personally, I want to own for one reason: to be able to go flying when I want, regardless of scheduling or whatever. That's it.

 

[Ken Ibold]

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?
2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

Then comes hangering or tieing down. If I hanger, a T-Hanger at my airport runs about $2900 a year. Tiedown is about $540 a year.

Safety:
Obviously, renting a plane has the danger of flying a plane that any number of...for lack of a better term...dumbasses have flown, slamming it down to the ground, landing with crazy sideloads, exceeding Va for maneuvers, etc. If I own my plane, then it would be only I that I'd have to worry about, and if I do any of the stupid listed above, at least I'll know about it.

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

1) Depending on the airplane, the maintenance is something of a crapshoot. I would figure at least $25 per hour for a simple fixed prop/gear airplane and maybe $40 an hour for a complex single. Might be less, might be more. When in doubt, estimate high.
2) The figure for an annual also depends on the airplane and your location. Personally, I would plan on $1500-$2000, but of course it could be extremely high due to an AD or need to rework cylinders or something. It could also be cheaper if you shop for a mechanic carefully and do some of the work yourself.
3) Hangar vs tiedown is your preference. The cost difference easily pays for a paint job in the time it takes the paint to fade. Use a cabin cover and you'll prevent some of the weathering/heat issues on the interior and avionics. But you'll have the issue of snow removal (if that's a factor where you live), wasp/bird nests, dirt accumulation, no place to store airplane "stuff", and so on.
4) Safety ... generally speaking, an airplane flown by few people holds up better than one flown by many. However, if you are the ONLY person to fly it, there are some things to consider. First, everyone misses something on preflights. If you consistently miss the same thing(s), problems could grow. Likewise, as something wears you are more likely to miss the growing problem over time because you don't notice the incremental change. These problems can be avoided if you preflight with a checklist AND let an experienced person fly the airplane from time to time.
5) For most people, owning is more expensive -- sometimes considerably more expensive -- than renting. However, given the option, most pilots would prefer to own rather than rent. No matter how you try to justify it financially, what it boils down to is that you'll probably be a more active and involved pilot if you own than if you rent, if for no other reason than to justify the investment. Just make sure you don't stretch yourself financially to the point where the maintenance of the airplane and your skills get pressured. My sister in law moved up from a Bonanza to a Baron and found the thing cost so much to operate she couldn't afford to fly it enough to be safe in it. Don't let that happen to you.
6) Finally, keep in mind the insidious financial impacts from owning. You'll wantto upgrade the avionics or buy other toys. You'll take trips you wouldn't otherwise take and incur expenses for rental cars, hotels and restaurants. If you're married, your spouse will want her own "treats" since you have indulged yourself with an airplane. The impact of this last item can be substantial. My wife bought a yacht, which made the airplane cheap by comparison.

 

[poadeleted3]

snip

Well, you can't argue with that one.

Personally, I want to own for one reason: to be able to go flying when I want, regardless of scheduling or whatever. That's it.

Without having to get special permission to make a day VFR trip in excess of 200 nm, which it turns out the rental agreement at Wings requires, and without having to get special permission to take the plane into fields less than 2,500 or 3,000 feet, not having to cart all the same gear like headsets and survival kits out to the plane time after time, and being able to say "Yeah, that's my plane." All worth the money. When I have the money, that is LOL.

 

[wsuffa]

Ok - so I need to justify buying a plane to a few people....of course, I haven't picked the plane yet, but that will come later.

Money first:
Renting a plane here runs about $112 an hour for the newer 172s with rear seats. There's also the fuel surcharge with right now is about $5 an hour. Flying 75 hours a year, that comes to $8775 a year.

If I purchase a plane for $35,000 (which is the middle of my price range), and break it down cost wise, that works out to almost 4 years of renting at the afformentioned rate. After that, I'm saving money. Of course, there's costs of annuals and maintenence, and that's where my first question comes in:

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?
2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

Then comes hangering or tieing down. If I hanger, a T-Hanger at my airport runs about $2900 a year. Tiedown is about $540 a year.

Safety:
Obviously, renting a plane has the danger of flying a plane that any number of...for lack of a better term...dumbasses have flown, slamming it down to the ground, landing with crazy sideloads, exceeding Va for maneuvers, etc. If I own my plane, then it would be only I that I'd have to worry about, and if I do any of the stupid listed above, at least I'll know about it.

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

Pride:
Of course, owning a plane means that I have my own plane. That's awesome. I'd love it and take care of it...well...let's just say that I would love that plane forever. Renting is cool, and still makes me feel good, but I can't even imagine pulling out my keychain and having an airplane key on it. Makes me shudder in joy thinking about it.

4. Am I missing anything?

As Brian said, look at the fixed and variable costs and figure from there. Fixed costs: Annual, insurance, tie-down/hangar, some maintenance items, database updates (if IFR GPS), etc. The costs you pay each month regardless of how much you fly. Variable costs are those which vary by flight hour: fuel, oil, wear & tear. I put reserves in a blended category because they vary by flight hour, but if you don't fly enough or you fly too much they will change (engine OH, paint job, interior, new avionics, etc).

Set up a spreadsheet & plug in the costs.

For a simple fixed-gear, you might spend $20 - $25 in maintenance per hour. For my complex single, it can range to $40 - $50 per hour (note, though, that I trade some maintenance expense for dispatch time, and I have a 29 year old plane).

For annual, simple fixed gear, $1000 - $1500 plus associated maintenance, complex single up to $2500 plus associated maintenance.

$350 - $500 every two years for IFR and transponder checks.

Tie-down/hangaring, you already have the local cost. Add inflation (here, it's $275/month to hangar, up from $250 three years ago).

You can estimate cost of insurance with a broker. You will find lower rates if you agree to recurrent training.

The big reason to own is dissatisfaction with the rental fleet. I bought mine during instrument training when I cancelled flights due to aircraft maintenance more than I flew. The vacuum failure (for real) on a rental plane was the last straw.

Generally, it will not be any cheaper to own than rent. You do it because you want the plane, or because you want the reliability of not having to rent.

 

[poadeleted20]

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?

That kind of depends on what you buy with your $35K, which most definitely won't be a "newer 172," and how much you fly it. In that price range, given you're looking for a simple O-320-powered 4-seater (which is NOT a 4-adult plane -- you need at least 180 HP for that, and you aren't likely to find that for $35K), you can expect to find a nice older 140 Cherokee, older 172, or Grumman Traveler, and maybe a Beech 19 Sport.

For such a plane, flown the "average" 75-100 hours per year, I'd budget about $3K for maintenance. Of course, that assumes the plane is in good shape to start with, and that's never a good assumption when you buy an airplane. Most folks find they spend about twice (or more) the expected annual budget the first year in order to correct the problems they inherited but did not detect before purchase -- and even the best pre-purchase inspection can't catch everything.

2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

For a plane like this, the inspection itself will run about $500-700, and as you seem to know, anything found on the inspection will be extra. My experience is that for a plane like this, the final bill at annual is usually in the $1200-1500 range.

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

The biggest safety advantage is familiarity. You know exactly where everything is (even two 172's side by side on the FBO's ramp will have some minor differences), you know exactly what to expect of the plane, etc. You also know that barring tampering, the plane will be pretty much as you left it when you come back to it.

4. Am I missing anything?

Probably. But that will come with time and research.

 

[EdFred]

Wow -
You people live in some EXPENSIVE areas.
Where I am:

Annual Inspection - $150
IFR certification - $80-$120 (I think. Mine was done just before I bought the plane.)

 

[Greebo]

The biggest safety advantage is familiarity. You know exactly where everything is (even two 172's side by side on the FBO's ramp will have some minor differences), you know exactly what to expect of the plane, etc. You also know that barring tampering, the plane will be pretty much as you left it when you come back to it.

Although, as Ken Ibold pointed out in one of his editorials, it bears pointing out that with familiarity comes the danger of complacency.

If you know you were the last person to fly it, you have to work double hard not to get lazy about checking things between flights - just cause they worked 10 flights ago doesn't mean they do now, and all that.

 

[Lawreston]

Nick:

In another post Brian Austin covered Pre-buy and Annual. Here's a personal example:
I'd been looking(from afar) at a nice-looking plane in a Southern state. There are some known problems(bad paint in one section, noisy start mechanism), and I have the total FAA file on it from October of 1966(but not additions noted only in engine and/or AF LOGs). Lookin' good; and viewed by a neutral 3rd party. So, I had a pre-buy done. Smart decision !! The plane is flat-out, NOT LEGAL.

An addition had been made, such that the replacement article is not a legal replacement of the required part. $700.00+ can correct the "oversight." Something so simple as its one vented fuel cap(AD requires two) is "grounding" sufficient, but not an expensive fix. The "start" problem would be $400 to $500 to remedy. The flap rollers are all worn(need replacement). Most of the hoses "are hard and/or cracked."
The engine mounts are sagging(several hundred $$ plus labor). Now, this plane was annualled in September of 2004 and bought by its present owner in December of 2004.
The A&P/IA who did the pre-buy told me, "If I had done the annual I would not have returned it to service without corrective measures being done." The annual, obviously, was a sham; and if I had bought it sans pre-buy my ferry pilot, in transit -- and in a scant chance of a ramp-check at fueling stop -- could be told, Sorry, ferry pilot, but this plane is grounded. Am I still interested? Yup. Considering I've been told by several experts, including the Pre-buy guy, that with corrections made it will be an excellent plane, I've made a counter-offer, with all corrections to be done. But if I had made a purchase, the upcoming September annual could have been one big surprise. And it's a 850 SMOH engine. Pre-buys can be a bargain, but annuals are better.

HR

 

[Ed Guthrie]

If I purchase a plane for $35,000 (which is the middle of my price range), and break it down cost wise, that works out to almost 4 years of renting at the afformentioned rate. After that, I'm saving money.

Most likely will not work that way. You will end up paying more per hour to fly your plane than you would have paid to rent. There will be no savings to offset the acquisition cost, in fact, there will be an increased per hour outlay on top of the acquisition cost.

1. How much should I set aside for maintenence yearly?

I would suggest doing as others have mentioned and think of this in terms of fixed and variable expenses. With the exception of the static system/altimeter/transponder checks every 2 years and the annual inspection, all other maintenance is a variable expense (per hour). Others have tossed out $20-40/hour numbers as WAG estimates. Opting for finer detail would be to put engine overhaul ($15,000/TBO = ~$8/hour), prop overhaul (??/TBO, depends heavily on fixed pitch versus C/S), tires (~$1/hour), and brakes ($1/hour) into the per hour estimate and ask if the remainder looks good.

2. How much does an annual with no problems usually run.

$600-800 for a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, single; $800-1200 for a retract single with C/S prop. Put this in the fixed cost bin.

Then comes hangering or tieing down. If I hanger, a T-Hanger at my airport runs about $2900 a year. Tiedown is about $540 a year.

Throw one of these in the fixed cost bin, too. While you are there, add insurance (get a quote from Zanette Aviation, or use $1200 was a WAG for a fixed gear single).

3. Anyone have any other safety advantages or disadvantages to owning?

If you have good self-discipline and the mechanic/shop is on field there is the advantage of having maintenance done as problems occur. For example, Dennis' shop has keys to my hanger and plane (as does the avionics shop over at Lancaster). If I arrive back at Smoketown at 2 AM and hear the exhaust popping when I reduce the throttle on final, I can leave Dennis a voicemail message as I'm leaving the field telling him that the exhaust gaskets needed checked/replaced. The plane gets serviced and put back into its home without further intervention on my part. Compare that to the average rental and the average "raping of the commons" attitude of rental pilots ("Report it now? Nope, its 2 AM. I'm going home to bed."), and the average penny pinching attitude of a local FBO/leaseback owner ("Fix the exhaust gasket? Why? It isn't leaking too badly yet.").

4. Am I missing anything?

1. Insurance.
2. Populate a spreadsheet with the fixed & variable cost estimates. Total the fixed costs. If you own the airplane these costs continue even if you don't fly at all.
3. Plug in 75 hours/year and see your hourly cost estimate. Now plug in 15 hours per year and note the per hour cost. According to several of my reliable sources the average owner flown plane is used <15 hours/year. Something to consider.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Nick-

Another option is to consider forming or getting into an existing partnership/co-ownership arrangement. I own my 182 with 2 other pilots, each of us flying about ~75+ hrs/year. This is a good utilization rate for the plane, and availability is still excellent. It helps that one of the partners flies for an airline and is rarely looking to fly the 182 on weekends.

It definitely takes a lot of work to start and maintain a partnership (let me know if you want the gory details!), but it is absolutely worth it for me & my partners, since we get to fly a plane that would otherwise be difficult for us to afford on our own, and with all the big bills getting split 3 ways, even the occasional surprise is much easier to handle.

Jeff

 

[Ken Ibold]

Another option is to consider forming or getting into an existing partnership/co-ownership arrangement.

This is the ideal setup. The trick is to find the right group of partners. I have tried on four different occasions. I succeeded once.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Purchase costs; $XXXX.00
Annuals; $xxxxx.00
ADs; $XXXXX.00
Unscheduled maintenance; $????.00

Returning your rented plane in need of unscheduled repair to the Aeroclub and saying, "It's broken, call me when it's fixed, I'd like an upgrade please."; .....PRICELESS !

 

[Kyle Thornley]

Under NO circumstances should you EVER run those numbers through a spreadsheet. Nor should you keep any fuel receipts or maintenance invoices, lest they should fall into the hands of the enemy (she of the land of checkbook). I find it much easier to cover my ears, close my eyes and go 'la-la-la'. If you actually look at real data you will never own your own. All kidding aside I have a spread sheet that I got from someone on the AOPA webboard (I thought it was Ed Guthrie) that was a very detailed instrument. I plugged in the numbers and then had a good cry. There is no way I come close to breaking even. That said, I have a fantastic wife (who's idea it was to buy the plane in the first place) who justifies it by saying we can go anywhere we want whenever we want and don't have to worry about bringing it back at at set time. I don't confuse her with the facts, I let her believe in Santa.

 

[wsuffa]

Under NO circumstances should you EVER run those numbers through a spreadsheet.

I'm still smarting (ouch) from the reaction I got from other members when I posted my total expenses for last year right here on POA....... other pilots can be the worst enemy of all....

 

[ejensen]

Annual Inspection - $150

Ed, how do you get the annual inspection down that far? Even with no repairs, and I open and close, it take around 15 hours for the IA to do the inspection and required service.

Eric

 

[gismo]

Ed, how do you get the annual inspection down that far? Even with no repairs, and I open and close, it take around 15 hours for the IA to do the inspection and required service.

Eric

I suspect that Ed's doing most of the grunt work (opening/closing, lubrication, oil change, spark plug work, etc) or his mechanic is undercharging him significantly. Either than or he's not getting much of an inspection.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I'm still smarting (ouch) from the reaction I got from other members when I posted my total expenses for last year right here on POA....... other pilots can be the worst enemy of all....

I have to run the numbers every year at tax time. Last year I was out of town for three months and then Hurricane Charley downed it for four months. Still the fixed costs dragged on. I'm probably the only person in the world who paid $500 per hour to fly a Citabria.

 

[wsuffa]

I have to run the numbers every year at tax time. QUOTE]

So do I.

$500/hr. Ouch. Would you like a little Jet-A with that headset?

 

[pete177]

If your gonna live in the same area for awhile, it's the only way to go. I wish I could have done it that way.

Nick-

Another option is to consider forming or getting into an existing partnership/co-ownership arrangement. I own my 182 with 2 other pilots, each of us flying about ~75+ hrs/year. This is a good utilization rate for the plane, and availability is still excellent. It helps that one of the partners flies for an airline and is rarely looking to fly the 182 on weekends.

It definitely takes a lot of work to start and maintain a partnership (let me know if you want the gory details!), but it is absolutely worth it for me & my partners, since we get to fly a plane that would otherwise be difficult for us to afford on our own, and with all the big bills getting split 3 ways, even the occasional surprise is much easier to handle.

Jeff

 

[N53KL]

Nick,

To make you feel better, I had dinner with a retired airline 747 Captain last week who infromed me he was buying an Eclipse VLJ (very light jet). I almost choked on my salmon when he told me his annual insurance bill was over $27,000. Try to justify that to anyone!

My annual costs (minus the bank note) runs around $11,000 for my Skylane including insurance, lodging, food/drink, and checkups. I fly around 100hrs a year. This is not cost effective, but this weekend I took four people to Nantucket for lunch and back. It took an hour each way (otherwise a 2 hour drive and a 2 hour boat ride each way).

At the end of May, I am going on a two week vacation visiting friends and family without long lines checking in and changing airplanes. I can go when and where (sans TFR's) I want. Not only that, but I am having REALLY GOOD TIME doing it!. THAT is my justification for owning and airplane.

Just my humble thoughts

Kevin

 

[poadeleted3]

Nick,

To make you feel better, I had dinner with a retired airline 747 Captain last week who infromed me he was buying an Eclipse VLJ (very light jet). I almost choked on my salmon when he told me his annual insurance bill was over $27,000. Try to justify that to anyone!

My annual costs (minus the bank note) runs around $11,000 for my Skylane including insurance, lodging, food/drink, and checkups. I fly around 100hrs a year. This is not cost effective, but this weekend I took four people to Nantucket for lunch and back. It took an hour each way (otherwise a 2 hour drive and a 2 hour boat ride each way).

At the end of May, I am going on a two week vacation visiting friends and family without long lines checking in and changing airplanes. I can go when and where (sans TFR's) I want. Not only that, but I am having REALLY GOOD TIME doing it!. THAT is my justification for owning and airplane.

Just my humble thoughts

Kevin

I wouldn't discount the cost effectiveness. I pay $100-$110 hr for Skyhawks, and other planes in the class go for about the same around here. I don't know what the note would add to your hourly costs, but you should get that money back at resale time anyway. Seems to me $100 hr for a Skylane is pretty good!

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Ok - so I need to justify buying a plane to a few people....of course, I haven't picked the plane yet, but that will come later.

If I purchase a plane for $35,000 (which is the middle of my price range), and break it down cost wise, that works out to almost 4 years of renting at the afformentioned rate.

After that, I'm saving money.

"...after that I'm saving money."



So far, I'm looking at about $1000/hr to fly my Cherokee 180 and the first year isn't over yet!

Don't even rationalize the cost. The best reason to own is because you want to.

I've come to understand that there's about 3/4hr of maintenance for every hour the plane flies. That's if nothing particularly bad happens along the way, like finding a bearing chunk in the oil screen.

Hopefully, you won't be similarly unlucky as me. But when you do buy, be aware and prepared that it can happen.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Don't even rationalize the cost. The best reason to own is because you want to.

what he said.....

Unless you fly 200+ hrs/year, there is basically zero chance owning will be cheaper than renting. Depending on the plane, more like 300hrs/yr for break-even.

Jeff

 

[EdFred]

Ed, how do you get the annual inspection down that far? Even with no repairs, and I open and close, it take around 15 hours for the IA to do the inspection and required service.

Eric

They have everything itemized out on my bill. The inspection itself was $150. This included all the AD research, and inspecting the plane. What it did not include was the labor for anything. I pulled all the plugs, all the covers, the seats, the tail cone, both cowls, did the oil change, changed the filters etc. The alternator/starter was a bit loose, so I pulled that too. I let the Mx put it all back together. The labor rate is $40/hr I think. With the new parts I had put on, the new bushing repair on the alternator/starter, brakes, and putting it all back together, my entire annual was $574. Parts / oil / oil filter / air filter / etc... was like $150. So the labor for everything was about $300. Had I done nothing, the annual would have probably run about $750.

 

[SkyHog]

You know, now I'm curious....why do airplane parts cost so much more than car parts, when they are essentially the same thing.

An alternator is an alternator, a battery is a battery, yet the prices are so much different.

It makes no sense to me.

 

[Brian Austin]

You know, now I'm curious....why do airplane parts cost so much more than car parts, when they are essentially the same thing.

An alternator is an alternator, a battery is a battery, yet the prices are so much different.

It makes no sense to me.

Liability insurance and certification inspections required by the FAA.

If you're alternator goes out in your car, you don't lose your ability to talk to someone while in the clouds, either.

 

[Richard]

You know, now I'm curious....why do airplane parts cost so much more than car parts,

Reminds me of a punchline to a joke; BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Actually, aviation, like marine have different specs that automotive parts. One day you'll be glad for that. Trying tying up to a sea buoy when your Korean made V-belt breaks off a lee coast or hitting the pause when your car generator goes belly in night IMC. Both have happened to someone I know and that last one was over mountainous area too.

 

[Bill]

Renting a plane here runs about $112 an hour for the newer 172s with rear seats. There's also the fuel surcharge with right now is about $5 an hour. Flying 75 hours a year, that comes to $8775 a year.

So, you're paying $117/hr for a Skyhawk, man, that is pricy. Still, I've run the #'s fifty different ways, and it seems including mortgage payments, you're talking $120/hr for 100hrs/yr on a $50k plane. There seems to be no way around that. You can rationalize some of that with you earning equity in the bird as you pay the note.

Obviously, renting a plane has the danger of flying a plane that any number of...for lack of a better term...dumbasses have flown, slamming it down to the ground, landing with crazy sideloads, exceeding Va for maneuvers, etc.

How about joining a club? At least you take that set of dumbasses and cull them down to a more manageable group of people. Also, in an equity club hopefully people will take better care of the planes seeing they own a piece of the aircraft (and a piece of maint thru hourlys and dues). Although my club has 45 members, I see the same 10-12 guys flying the planes consistantly. I have had few gripes and the planes have high dispatch availability. They all have fairly new paint/interiors and look nice.

4. Am I missing anything?

To own something you can't reasonably rent? My instructor has a Citabria, and his insurance policy won't allow him to rent it to anyone with less than 200 tailwheel hours, and this is typical of tailwheel insurance policies. Wanna fly that airplane, you pretty much have to go buy one.

The more I crunch the numbers, the only way I will probably own is if I want to own something I can't rent. In our club, I have access to planes with equipment I know I can't afford. I pay $89 tach (about $77 hobbs) for an Archer III with twin 430's, stormscope, and an S-tec 55x autopilot. If you try to put those goodies in a $50k plane, you'll nearly double what you spend. After 200hrs, I'll have access to a 4 year old <500TT 206 Stationair for $150/hr, similarly equipped.

Looking at that, does it make sense to buy? Dunno. This is hard.

 

[RogerT]

Ok - so I need to justify buying a plane to a few people....of course,

Nick .. if you have to justify it to anyone don't buy one. I've never been
able to show where owning one was cheaper than renting unless you're
renting a huge number of hours. And I'm on my 5th plane. The reason
you get an airplane is because you want one. And you don't like to
share. You want it there whenever you decide to fly. And you want
to know it's condition at all times.

The variable is can you afford it. Sit down and figure out on paper
what you think it will cost you to own one. Now double it. Can you
afford to put that amount into an aircraft account each month? Then
go for it.

RT

 

[Lawreston]

Nick:

Here's a good deal, if you move to North Carolina. However, it might be a misprint.
http://www.ipilot.com/classifieds/display.aspx?pid=8362

HR

 

[Greebo]

$2900 wac gets you 25% owner of this New Tiger AG-5B

That's GOTTA be a misprint - even at 1/4 owner that has got to have been intended as $29,000!

 

[Ken Ibold]

That's GOTTA be a misprint - even at 1/4 owner that has got to have been intended as $29,000!

Even that isn't enough. It has to be 2900 down and $XXX per month. Note the "with approved credit."

The advertiser should be taken out to the woodshed. Or better yet, forced to honor the advertised price! Anyone know a good lawyer?

 

[poadeleted3]

Even that isn't enough. It has to be 2900 down and $XXX per month. Note the "with approved credit."

The advertiser should be taken out to the woodshed. Or better yet, forced to honor the advertised price! Anyone know a good lawyer?

Pushed hard enough, I'm sure they'll honor the price. If you can get approved for credit throught their plan

 

[Lawreston]

Even that isn't enough. It has to be 2900 down and $XXX per month. Note the "with approved credit."

The advertiser should be taken out to the woodshed. Or better yet, forced to honor the advertised price! Anyone know a good lawyer?

Aren't you married to one?

)

 

[Ken Ibold]

Aren't you married to one?

)

Yes, and actually I asked her about it, reasoning that making a 40K profit by buying the share and then reselling it would be worth whatever hassle might be involved with forcing the advertiser to honor the price.

She says that, when it comes to advertising, there is a standard of whether a reasonable person might be confused as to the real value. And I think any reasonable person would conclude that an airplane like that would be worth more than $11,600. So she shot me down. That 40K woulda bought a nice boat, too...