Buying a plane upgraded or do it yourself?

Jhernandez04

Jhernandez04

Line Up and Wait
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TheHulk
Heres the deal, the bank i've contacted for the loan on my new plane tells me if I want the best rate with a 20 year note I must find a plane thats around 87.5K-90K which leaves the actual note around 75K (gotta put 15% down)

My choices are this:

Find a serious IFR plane already upgraded with a 430W/530W and mid time engine for around 90K

OR

Find a plane with a basic panel, auto pilot and lower time engine for around 60K and use the remaining money (about 30K) to upgrade the panel or other areas? The avionics I would choose would be the GTN750 & GTX327.

I've read a lot about people not getting back what they put in, and im sure I can find a great deal with a plane that has the 430/530 already installed. But the GTN750 is so nice, its hard to steer away from it. I plan to keep this plane for at least a decade God willing. I just want to make the best decision with regards to this purchase and I want a really capable IFR flying machine.

Thanks for the help.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/gps-nav-comm/gtn-750/prod67886.html

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/transponders/gtx-327/prod124.html
 
You're probably not going to find many used planes with the 750 yet. It's too new.

Besides, one of the fun things about owning these machines is making them better and customized exclusively for you.

Maybe you won't get your money back out of it, but that's a hard row to hoe for any aircraft.
 
txflyer said:
You're probably not going to find many used planes with the 750 yet. It's too new.

Besides, one of the fun things about owning these machines is making them better and customized exclusively for you.

Maybe you won't get your money back out of it, but that's a hard row to hoe for any aircraft.
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I like the way you think.

My wife doesnt like the old planes. She doesn't understand about how well maintained they can be. She sees my old panel in my 235 and thinks all 60ish planes are like that.

I showed her some planes with upgraded panels and didnt show her the year of the plane and she liked them. So if I upgrade the panel to a GTN750, which I consider somewhat of a glass panel, not sure the definition though. I know she'll love it. And so will I because of the workload would be decreased during IFR operations, of which i've yet to do but plan for the IFR cert this fall.
 
Let someone else pay for the new avionics.

I have kicked around idea of a couple new things in the cockpit but hate to pay full price only to lose my butt if I sell.
 
Jthamilton said:
Let someone else pay for the new avionics.

I have kicked around idea of a couple new things in the cockpit but hate to pay full price only to lose my butt if I sell.
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But like mentioned, I haven't found one with a GTN750 or GTN anything. lol im kinda like " I want it, I want it"
:mad2::mad2:
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I like the way you think.

My wife doesnt like the old planes. She doesn't understand about how well maintained they can be. She sees my old panel in my 235 and thinks all 60ish planes are like that.

I showed her some planes with upgraded panels and didnt show her the year of the plane and she liked them. So if I upgrade the panel to a GTN750, which I consider somewhat of a glass panel, not sure the definition though. I know she'll love it. And so will I because of the workload would be decreased during IFR operations, of which i've yet to do but plan for the IFR cert this fall.
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If you could back off the 750, and go with an old 430W tied to Aspen's P1000 with synthetic vision, I think she'd like that better for about the same cost as one 750.

If I were going to be flying a lot of IFR, I'd want the Aspen with it's syn vision and it's HSI. Where it get's it's GPS nav data from is inconsequential as long as it's updated WAAS info.

Tie it altogether with a GPSS box to the autopilot, and you've got better avionics than some airliners. Plug and play. And the monkey touches a button.... :)
 
txflyer said:
If you could back off the 750, and go with an old 430W tied to Aspen's P1000 with synthetic vision, I think she'd like that better for about the same cost as one 750.

If I were going to be flying a lot of IFR, I'd want the Aspen with it's syn vision and it's HSI. Where it get's it's GPS nav data from is inconsequential as long as it's updated WAAS info.

Tie it altogether with a GPSS box to the autopilot, and you've got better avionics than some airliners. Plug and play. And the monkey touches a button.... :)
Click to expand...


OOOooooooo now your bringing more options to the table.

How much would an Aspen P1000 cost with installation + tied into the GPSS box?

I found a nicer mid time bo that I could upgrade and still be where I want.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
OOOooooooo now your bringing more options to the table.

How much would an Aspen P1000 cost with installation + tied into the GPSS box?

I found a nicer mid time bo that I could upgrade and still be where I want.
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Sarasota is showing $11,899 installed. (estimate) that's NOT including the GPSS. DYOD.

You'll need a WAAS GPS receiver. Most used aircraft have 430's or 530's now.

530's are nice. And I'll add this, if the 650's and 750's touch screens are anything like any other touch screen tablet I've used, I hate it. I like buttons and the tactile feedback you get from them. In time, you can use the buttons without even hardly looking. You must LOOK at a touchscreen. And in turbulence, forget it....


http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/efd1000-pro-pfd
 
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You will spend a fortune in avionics at that price point of a plane...I might offer a third option...Find a plane with the avionics that are closer to what you want but with a run out engine and factor in a rebuild.

That is exactly what I did...wound up with a hell of a nicer panel then I would have ever been able to afford otherwise...and will have a zero time engine! When I looked at my plane + rebuild costs...still couldn't find a plane as nice and as equipped for the same budget.
 
It will cost more to do it yourself, but it will be exactly the way you want it.

So, how much is that worth to you?
 
Shawn said:
You will spend a fortune in avionics at that price point of a plane...I might offer a third option...Find a plane with the avionics that are closer to what you want but with a run out engine and factor in a rebuild.

That is exactly what I did...wound up with a hell of a nicer panel then I would have ever been able to afford otherwise...and will have a zero time engine! When I looked at my plane + rebuild costs...still couldn't find a plane as nice and as equipped for the same budget.
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That is the way to go.
Weirdly, engine overhaul is cheaper than avionics and everyone seems to ditch their plane when the engine nears the dreaded 2000 hour mark.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
But like mentioned, I haven't found one with a GTN750 or GTN anything. lol im kinda like " I want it, I want it"
:mad2::mad2:
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Or you could:

(Option 1 - if you REALLY want a 750) Get a plane with the 530 and a 430 installed, swap the 530 for a 750 and sell the 530. I hear they command big $$ in Europe. The 750 would be about 10K net after selling the 530 based on quotes I got.

(Option 2) get a 640. About 4-5K less $$, but same functionality just a smallerscreen. I felw a plane with a 650 and LOVED it.

(option 3) Find one with a 750 and nearly TBOd engine - if you can. Highly unlikely.

Would much rather swap a 750 for a 530 as long as the plane has a good autopilot.

Just my 2 cents....
 
Go with an airplane with the 530 and swap it out for a 750 also swap out the transponder for a330es and your good to go.also meets adsb out.
 
Airplanes are a combination of 4 things:
1. airframe time and condition
2. engine time and condition
3. avionics
4. cosmetics (paint and interior)
All of these can be upgraded even airframe condition, total time is the only thing you can't change.
Engine ovehaul is pretty easy to predict as far as price, when it happens, not so much.
Paint and interior age at a fairly constant rate depending on hangar vs tie down and refurbishment is again at a predictible rate.
Avionics can last for a long time, they may not be the latest and greatest after 5 years, but they can be serviceable for 15-20 years.
The key to buying the right airplane is to find one that is lacking in only one of these key areas. :D
OK paint and interior won't look as good after you put that shiny new $30K panel in. :dunno:
New interior makes the old paint look bad by comparison. ;) Same with new paint and old interior.
The exception being finding a restoration project that someone gives you, and do it all, but you have to start with a free or almost airframe to make that work. :D
 
N747JB said:
Airplanes are a combination of 4 things:
1. airframe time and condition
2. engine time and condition
3. avionics
4. cosmetics (paint and interior)
All of these can be upgraded even airframe condition, total time is the only thing you can't change.
Engine ovehaul is pretty easy to predict as far as price, when it happens, not so much.
Paint and interior age at a fairly constant rate depending on hangar vs tie down and refurbishment is again at a predictible rate.
Avionics can last for a long time, they may not be the latest and greatest after 5 years, but they can be serviceable for 15-20 years.
The key to buying the right airplane is to find one that is lacking in only one of these key areas. :D
OK paint and interior won't look as good after you put that shiny new $30K panel in. :dunno:
New interior makes the old paint look bad by comparison. ;) Same with new paint and old interior.
The exception being finding a restoration project that someone gives you, and do it all, but you have to start with a free or almost airframe to make that work. :D
Click to expand...

How do you get a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large fortune.
 
I would look for a good airframe that you can start with. I put in a gtn 650 in to my arrow last year and I love it. If I bought another plane, even if it had a 430/530, it would be in the avionics shop next week getting the gtn.

You will always hear people say never pay for avionics or buy with the avionics you want because it never makes sense to pay for it. But if you want the latest and greatest, that's the way to go.
 
Shawn said:
You will spend a fortune in avionics at that price point of a plane...I might offer a third option...Find a plane with the avionics that are closer to what you want but with a run out engine and factor in a rebuild.

That is exactly what I did...wound up with a hell of a nicer panel then I would have ever been able to afford otherwise...and will have a zero time engine! When I looked at my plane + rebuild costs...still couldn't find a plane as nice and as equipped for the same budget.
Click to expand...

I've always like this approach. Plus, you can get the overhaul done by the reputable shop of your choice, whereas when buying a recently overhauled plane you might be paying that premium in the purchase price for what may be a shoddy pencil-whipped overhaul.

Another idea for making the wife happy with the nicely updated panel -- you can always panel mount some of the Garmin portable GPS's in addition to whatever 430/530/750 is in there but at a fraction of the cost. Mount an Aera and/or a 696 and she'll have no idea she's in a 60's-era beater. :D
 
There are two planes with mid time engines that are perfect for what I am considering, one had 900hrs and one has 1000hrs.

One is SMOH and the other is SFRM, which is prefferable and why?
 
Buy the nicest plane you can afford with the updates done. I learned this the hard way. Big monthlys also take a lot of joy from flying.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Weirdly, engine overhaul is cheaper than avionics...
Click to expand...

And that, in a nutshell, sums up the sad state of certificated light plane avionics.

When faced with the insane cost of putting 21st century avionics in a 1974 Piper, I opted to sell the plane and go experimental.

The last estimate I received for a panel upgrade on our Cherokee Pathfinder was $55,000 -- about what I got for the plane when I sold it. Unless you're flying an older "collector" airplane (rare birds like a Comanche 400, or Cessna 195 -- something that has long term value) it simply makes no financial sense to install glass.

Of course, since when does general aviation make "economic sense"? lol! If you've got the money to burn, buy the plane you want, take the plane to an avionics shop, and say "Make it so..."
 
If you are going to keep the plane a long time, upgrade early, that way you get you money's worth, you get exactly what you want, you get to enjoy it for many years to come, it could save you money (if you add a engine monitor with fuel flow), it could save your life (traffic alert, terrain alert, etc with new GPS), and could save you time (new GPS allows you to enter airways, instead of having to put all the waypts in).
And when time comes to sell, it will make it easier to sell if you bought good quality stuff.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
OOOooooooo now your bringing more options to the table.

How much would an Aspen P1000 cost with installation + tied into the GPSS box?

I found a nicer mid time bo that I could upgrade and still be where I want.
Click to expand...

The Aspen has the GPSS converter built in.
 
txflyer said:
If you could back off the 750, and go with an old 430W tied to Aspen's P1000 with synthetic vision, I think she'd like that better for about the same cost as one 750.



If I were going to be flying a lot of IFR, I'd want the Aspen with it's syn vision and it's HSI. Where it get's it's GPS nav data from is inconsequential as long as it's updated WAAS info.



Tie it altogether with a GPSS box to the autopilot, and you've got better avionics than some airliners. Plug and play. And the monkey touches a button.... :)
Click to expand...


No need for GPSS if you have the Aspen. But, keep in mind the 750 is a substantially nicer moving map AND displays weather and traffic far better than the 430. Eventually you'll need an ADSB solution in that plane and if you go with a GTX327 mode C (as was suggested) you'll need a separate box like the GDL88. To maximize the value of traffic and weather from that box you'll want the 750 over the 430.

Related, why the gtx327 over the gtx330 with TIS traffic and an easy upgrade to ADSB (out only, though) compliance?
 
dukeblue219 said:
No need for GPSS if you have the Aspen. But, keep in mind the 750 is a substantially nicer moving map AND displays weather and traffic far better than the 430. Eventually you'll need an ADSB solution in that plane and if you go with a GTX327 mode C (as was suggested) you'll need a separate box like the GDL88. To maximize the value of traffic and weather from that box you'll want the 750 over the 430.

Related, why the gtx327 over the gtx330 with TIS traffic and an easy upgrade to ADSB (out only, though) compliance?
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Good info, and I did not know the Aspen had built in GPSS.

I guess the thing to check would be if the Aspen provides the compatible I/O for your particular autopilot....

I have a buddy who put two of the Aspen column's in his old Bo with an existing 530W and it's a sweet setup.
 
txflyer said:
Good info, and I did not know the Aspen had built in GPSS.

I guess the thing to check would be if the Aspen provides the compatible I/O for your particular autopilot....

I have a buddy who put two of the Aspen column's in his old Bo with an existing 530W and it's a sweet setup.
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The two aspens side by side seem like a great idea.
 
The single aspen 1000 runs around $11000 here

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 
JH. I am about to put my Arrow on the market.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 
Alternatively, recognize that the plane flies just fine with the same steam gauges ut always had. Then use the savings to buy a second airplane.

When i put a gps in the travel air I thought about a 530 but opted to still make the travel air /g and added an aeronca champ to the stable at the same time.
 
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[One is SMOH and the other is SFRM, which is prefferable and why?[/QUOTE]


SMOH= is a rebuild engine with yellow tagged parts (hopefully) still carries a log book of total time.

SFRM = Since Factory Remanufactured all parts used are zero time tolerances, starts a new log book.

SFRM is a better engine.
With the cost of avionics today and with what they have to offer in the experimental world I'm not sure how you can beat it. As long as your using a certified engine and prop. The best bang for the buck in my opinion.
 
tecprotb said:
SFRM is a better engine.
With the cost of avionics today and with what they have to offer in the experimental world I'm not sure how you can beat it. As long as your using a certified engine and prop. The best bang for the buck in my opinion.
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In theory, but not always in reality.

With some of the horror stories I've been hearing about Continental Factory Remans in recent years, I wouldn't place any additional value on a Conti SFRM vs a reputable engine shop.
 
JHW said:
Alternatively, recognize that the plane flies just fine with the same steam gauges ut always had. Then use the savings to buy a second airplane.

When i put a gps in the travel air I thought about a 530 but opted to still make the travel air /g and added an aeronca champ to the stable at the same time.
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I like your style....

I don't even have my first ship, and I'm trying to convince my wife that we need two...
 
tmyers said:
JH. I am about to put my Arrow on the market.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
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Sorry to hear that. Upgrading (to what) or getting out of ownership? Had it been a year ago when I was looking I would have been interested in it. Hard to find Arrow IIIs in this market.

Good luck with the sale. Hope it goes by quick. I hate the buy/sell kabuki of airplanes.
 
LOL having two planes would be fun. But its not worth the extra expense. I use my plane for 90% business and see no value (aside from being fun) of a 2nd plane.
 
Jesse, our club is spending $42k on our 1966 Bo V35, removing the very dated and cluttered setup and replacing with new wiring, switches, metal panel, GTN750, single panel Aspen, PS8000b audio panel, Garmin CDI, and other small goodies. This started last week and hopefully will be done by end of June.

Once complete, you are welcome to come visit and see what we got for our money. Our desire is to take a very capable go somewhere aircraft and make it fit our long term mission of go anywhere aircraft.

Woke is being done by Tech Aero here at KDTO.
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
The two aspens side by side seem like a great idea.
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One is a PFD and the other is a MFD I think is how it works ....

Another option that I think no one has mentioned is if you found a plane with good GPS and an old DG that just has a heading bug, you could swap it out for one of the glass HSI's that shows weather and other stuff.... :dunno::idea:
 
AggieMike88 said:
Jesse, our club is spending $42k on our 1966 Bo V35, removing the very dated and cluttered setup and replacing with new wiring, switches, metal panel, GTN750, single panel Aspen, PS8000b audio panel, Garmin CDI, and other small goodies. This started last week and hopefully will be done by end of June.

Once complete, you are welcome to come visit and see what we got for our money. Our desire is to take a very capable go somewhere aircraft and make it fit our long term mission of go anywhere aircraft.

Woke is being done by Tech Aero here at KDTO.
Click to expand...


That sounds like a great idea.

I really have nothing to judge from, but are Tech Aero's rates competitive? Its looking like a low time Comanche 250 or a Mid time V35.

I think i'm stuck on the GTN750 +GTX 330 (decided against the 327) and maybe an engine monitor. I have around 25-35K for upgrades. It just depends which plane I end up going with.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Sorry to hear that. Upgrading (to what) or getting out of ownership? Had it been a year ago when I was looking I would have been interested in it. Hard to find Arrow IIIs in this market.

Good luck with the sale. Hope it goes by quick. I hate the buy/sell kabuki of airplanes.
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First option is to upgrade to a Deb. But nothing is concrete yet. Thought about upgrading the avionics in the Arrow with a G500, 430 and a new audio panel. Not sure that is worth the cost though.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 
Jhernandez04 said:
That sounds like a great idea.

I really have nothing to judge from, but are Tech Aero's rates competitive? Its looking like a low time Comanche 250 or a Mid time V35.

I think i'm stuck on the GTN750 +GTX 330 (decided against the 327) and maybe an engine monitor. I have around 25-35K for upgrades. It just depends which plane I end up going with.
Click to expand...

Trever & Tyler (Tech Aero) are very competitive and one of the best around. Gets the planes in and out quick better than most. He has upgraded three panels for me and I would highly recommend him.
 
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