Bronx Train Engineer dozing

The dozing does not surprise me. Unlike driving where you can crash within seconds after closng your eyes on a locomotive you could have your eyes closed for minutes without worrying except for maybe obstacles on the tracks. Surprise me they didn't have a warning system on the locomotive on approaching a turn. Even some road GPS alert you of exceeding speed limits. Well there is another market for Garmin.

José
 
I foresee some loud, audible warnings coming out of this for speeding and approaching turns too fast. Makes logical sense to me.

Sad that it happened and also stupid. But train travel is still much safer than car travel. They should report more about auto accidents to put things in perspective.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I foresee some loud, audible warnings coming out of this for speeding and approaching turns too fast. Makes logical sense to me.

Sad that it happened and also stupid. But train travel is still much safer than car travel. They should report more about auto accidents to put things in perspective.
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Wouldn't that be like most of the aircraft accidents reports in the NTSB archives?

"Drivers (Pilots) involved in accidents are usually inattentive, careless, and take unnecessary risks. As are many of the ones who aren't in accidents."
 
Of course, then the engineer would just cover up the alarm with tape so it wouldn't disrupt his toke.
 
kyleb said:
Wouldn't that be like most of the aircraft accidents reports in the NTSB archives?

"Drivers (Pilots) involved in accidents are usually inattentive, careless, and take unnecessary risks. As are many of the ones who aren't in accidents."
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So we can stipulate that pilots and drivers are human beings, in general. :D
 
Piloto said:
The dozing does not surprise me. Unlike driving where you can crash within seconds after closng your eyes on a locomotive you could have your eyes closed for minutes without worrying except for maybe obstacles on the tracks. Surprise me they didn't have a warning system on the locomotive on approaching a turn. Even some road GPS alert you of exceeding speed limits. Well there is another market for Garmin.

José
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It's there, it's what brought him to attention to shut down the throttle 6 seconds prior to the turn and apply the brake 5 seconds prior, if he had gotten out of the brake in the turn, it may have stayed on the tracks.
 
They should periodically text train drivers to make sure they are still awake. Yup sarcasm again.
 
At first glance, you'd think it would be simple to put a new map into a Garmin Nuvi or something similar to give alarms if a train needs to (or will soon need to) reduce speed.

Of course, that would >presumably< allow engineers to sleep until the alarm went off, which isn't exactly the intent.
 
kyleb said:
At first glance, you'd think it would be simple to put a new map into a Garmin Nuvi or something similar to give alarms if a train needs to (or will soon need to) reduce speed.

Of course, that would >presumably< allow engineers to sleep until the alarm went off, which isn't exactly the intent.
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All trains have 'dead man' devices. Older units had a pedal you had to stand on all day, they were painful enough that everyone just took their flagging kit and jammed it on the pedal and under the panel. Then they came out with the intermittent light and button. The light flashes, you hit the button. No button and the light starts flashing progressively faster, when the light goes solid, the train goes into emergency braking, at that point you lost your job.
 
Norman said:
And railroaders have similar thoughts about pilots. :yes::rofl:
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We should paint the conductors phone number on top of trains and require pilots flying by to text the conductors to make sure everybody is still awake. Safety all around.
 
The conductors let the stewardesses drive?
 
Piloto said:
The dozing does not surprise me. Unlike driving where you can crash within seconds after closng your eyes on a locomotive you could have your eyes closed for minutes without worrying except for maybe obstacles on the tracks. Surprise me they didn't have a warning system on the locomotive on approaching a turn. Even some road GPS alert you of exceeding speed limits. Well there is another market for Garmin.

José
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I have 5 bucks the union will stand behind this guy 100%.... To heck with the 4 dead and dozens injured...


Idiot,,, sleeping on the job....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:
 
N801BH said:
I have 5 bucks the union will stand behind this guy 100%.... To heck with the 4 dead and dozens injured...


Idiot,,, sleeping on the job....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:
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They will, but the Federal Railroad Admin can be just like the FAA when it comes to violations. Clean record or not, this occurrence could cost him his engineer's license. That happens, it's bye bye job.
 
N801BH said:
I have 5 bucks the union will stand behind this guy 100%.... To heck with the 4 dead and dozens injured...


Idiot,,, sleeping on the job....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:
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No, now he says he didn't know he was sleeping.

....Sounds kinna like....?sleep apnea?
......could it be?

Nah, WE DEMAND SOLID EVIDENCE!
RULEMAKING!
BY G_D WE HAVE RIGHTS!
 
Norman said:
They will, but the Federal Railroad Admin can be just like the FAA when it comes to violations. Clean record or not, this occurrence could cost him his engineer's license. That happens, it's bye bye job.
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I can see it now............................

He will get "excused" from his job... Admit to NOTHING...

Take early retirement and the union pension will pay him 125 grand a year and he moves to Fla to live happily ever after...:mad::mad2:
 
N801BH said:
I can see it now............................

He will get "excused" from his job... Admit to NOTHING...

Take early retirement and the union pension will pay him 125 grand a year and he moves to Fla to live happily ever after...:mad::mad2:
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What is there to admit to that he hasn't already? Toxicology will show what it will show, and he's already stated he was nodding and having trouble focusing and staying awake and aware.

I'm not personally ready to hang the guy yet, fatigue can be a real mother ****er. What would you say if they find he has OSA and goes on CPAP?
 
weilke said:
Well, by federal law and FRA regulation, the class I freight railroads and some of the commuter rail systems are required to install 'positive train control'. Like anything else the federal goverment touches, it has turned into a outrageously expensive and massively delayed enterprise and will probably miss the 2016 deadline.
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I'd imagine that they'll tie them to a cell or RR radio network so they can get up to the minute changes in conditions?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I foresee some loud, audible warnings coming out of this for speeding and approaching turns too fast. Makes logical sense to me.
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Well, by federal law and FRA regulation, the class I freight railroads and some of the commuter rail systems are required to install 'positive train control' by December 2015. It will do that and more. Like anything else the federal goverment touches, it has turned into a outrageously expensive and massively delayed enterprise and will probably miss the deadline.
 
Henning said:
I'd imagine that they'll tie them to a cell or RR radio network so they can get up to the minute changes in conditions?
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That would make too much sense.

I haven't followed it too closely, but just like with ADS-B, they have apparently decided on incompatible systems, some using wireless transmitters others transferring the data by mounted messenger. Lots of sensors on the switches, tracks, counting axles etc.

It'll be great once it works :wink2: .
 
September, 2008. A Metrolink Train and a Union Pacific ballast (rock) train had a head-on collision in Chatsworth, Ca. It was later determined that the engineer was involved in a text messaging session which possibly distracted him.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision
I've been to that site several times as part of the investigation, and the UP crew only had 4.5 seconds from the time they saw the passenger train to collision. Had is not occurred on an 8° curve, the death tool would have been much higher. 25 deaths caused the FRA to mandate PTC to be instilled by 2015.

Metro North is NOT required to install this as they do not meet the criteria set forth in the law.
PTC is GPS and railroad network based. The major headache is really the integration of the system over the 4 major class I railroads (UP, BNSF, CSX and NS), so that locomotives may traverse other company's property seamlessly without the need to switch locomotives when on another railroad's track. Getting th railroads to agree on a standard was a huge undertaking.
They are behind schedule, but not as badly as one would expect.
 
Keith, it is interesting that the Metro North (passenger) railroad has three divisions: Hudson (on which the recent derailment occurred), the Harlem, and the New Haven division.

I used to commute on the New Haven division. They had PTC on the New Haven division back in the mid 2000's but only outside of New York City. When the train came into the City it also changed from pantograph power (power from a cable above) to third rail power. The pantographs were lowered and there was no more PTC. Is this a coincidence or is PTC not possible with third rail?

I do not know if the other Divisions have PTC outside of NYC. But, just for clarity, the recent accident occurred in NYC.

-Skip
 
Hard to believe that the railroads can't all get together and get a single standard contractor.
 
I'm not too familiar with how Metro North's systems work. My first time on their railroad was a couple of weeks ago in the tunnel that runs under Park Ave. We were at 86th street. I'll be back up there in January or Feb. We will be working with the signals department and I'll try to ask what the deal is with regards to your question. The recently mandated PTC system really pertains to tracks where freight and passenger trains share trackage rights, with special considerations for hazmat trains.
The new hot topic is oil trains. Since the explosion at Lac Magentic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_derailment), has already caused a lot of new rules to be created and athey are already implemented.
If you happen to see an oil train nowadays, there will always be a "buffer car" between ant locomotive and the tank cars. Usually a boxcar or sand filled hopper car. Also the tank cars now have a big steel shield plate at each end to help stop the ends from being punctured in a derailment. These new rules went into effect less than 4 months after the crash.
 
Keith Lane said:
September, 2008. A Metrolink Train and a Union Pacific ballast (rock) train had a head-on collision in Chatsworth, Ca. It was later determined that the engineer was involved in a text messaging session which possibly distracted him.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision
I've been to that site several times as part of the investigation, and the UP crew only had 4.5 seconds from the time they saw the passenger train to collision. Had is not occurred on an 8° curve, the death tool would have been much higher. 25 deaths caused the FRA to mandate PTC to be instilled by 2015.

Metro North is NOT required to install this as they do not meet the criteria set forth in the law.
PTC is GPS and railroad network based. The major headache is really the integration of the system over the 4 major class I railroads (UP, BNSF, CSX and NS), so that locomotives may traverse other company's property seamlessly without the need to switch locomotives when on another railroad's track. Getting th railroads to agree on a standard was a huge undertaking.
They are behind schedule, but not as badly as one would expect.
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Wouldn't it be ALOT easier if the train operator just ran the train like he/she is being paid for instead of texting, talking, sleeping or any other distraction they all seem to use to cover for their pi&& poor work ethics ?:idea:..
 
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Keith Lane said:
The recently mandated PTC system really pertains to tracks where freight and passenger trains share trackage rights, with special considerations for hazmat trains.
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I think the odds of PTC being mandated for commuter rail systems just went up.
 
Keith Lane said:
The recently mandated PTC system really pertains to tracks where freight and passenger trains share trackage rights, with special considerations for hazmat trains.
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This could definitely have something to do with it. The New Haven Division uses Conrail Tracks on the main line up to New Haven, also sharing the tracks with Amtrak.

Southbound, in New Rochelle, NY, there is a Y junction, with one branch going across the bridge (more or less at Hell Gate) and services all of Long Island including the main line into Penn Station. Passenger and freight traffic.

The other branch of the Y goes west(ish) through Pelham and then south through the Bronx, over a different bridge, continuing south and terminating at Grand Central. I have never seen freight traffic on this branch.

Although New Rochelle is not the last town before the City line, it is close enough that my original statement that the PTC terminated at the City line and your statement regarding passenger and freight traffic requiring PTC may be different versions of the same thing.

I'll be interested to hear the results of your chats with the signal folks.

-Skip
 
Keith,

Make that SEVEN class I's. You forgot Canadian National and Kansas City Southern. :yes:
 
Looks like the 'headless chicken response' of the federal government is not limited to aviation.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...nges-after-deadly-crash?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

The emergency order from the Federal Railroad Administration requires Metro-North to modify its signal system so that it will automatically slow down a train if the engineer fails to do so in spots where there is a dramatic speed change.
Until that happens, two qualified crew members must be in place to operate trains on tracks where the speed limit changes by more than 20 mph.



They should probably also mandate a decal to be affixed to the inside of the cab admonishing the engineer not to fall asleep.
 
Sleep Apnea is now an official area of investigation in this accident.

-Skip
 
OK - think back your last landing. Give me all of the details . .. speed, heading, what was right about it and what was wrong about it. . ..

Humans are creatures of habit. We do things and we never know that we did them. Ever drive home and not know how you got there? I've done 6 or 7 hops in a day and not had a clue about running the last 2 or 3.

We're in the zone - and sometimes - too far into the zone. Thats what happened here. Its not apnea, its not falling asleep, its not any of that stuff. It is simply a guy who has done this 12 million times before not knowing where he was or what he was doing because its out and back and out and back and out and back . . . .
 
N747JB said:
Sleep Apnea is like peanut allergies, 30 years ago nobody heard of it, today everybody has it! :rolleyes:
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The peanut one is interesting, but true (not everyone, but expanding, could the introduction of GMO peanut trials in 1993 be related :dunno:), and it will continue to expand now that we know about it and kids with peanut allergies grow up long enough to reproduce and pass on those genes. Narcolepsy has been a long standing issue only recently tied to Sleep Apnea, which is heavily (pun intended) tied to obesity, and sleeping on your back. I would hazard to guess that SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome, aka crib death) is the manifestation of OSA in infants.

The thing is knowledge increases every day. Because we know something today that we didn't know yesterday doesn't mean it just developed or that it is BS. Medicine is science, not religion. It does not stick to ancient dogmas, wishes, and beliefs for millenia as the knowledge that shows the dogmas false develops over time.
 
Henning said:
The peanut one is interesting, but true (not everyone, but expanding, could the introduction of GMO peanut trials in 1993 be related :dunno:), and it will continue to expand now that we know about it and kids with peanut allergies grow up long enough to reproduce and pass on those genes. Narcolepsy has been a long standing issue only recently tied to Sleep Apnea, which is heavily (pun intended) tied to obesity, and sleeping on your back. I would hazard to guess that SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome, aka crib death) is the manifestation of OSA in infants.

The thing is knowledge increases every day. Because we know something today that we didn't know yesterday doesn't mean it just developed or that it is BS. Medicine is science, not religion. It does not stick to ancient dogmas, wishes, and beliefs for millenia as the knowledge that shows the dogmas false develops over time.
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I agree................ To a point...

Then there is the ADHD fiasco.. It is turning into the biggest fraud /scam /money milking drain on funds in the history of the country... :mad:
 
N801BH said:
I agree................ To a point...

Then there is the ADHD fiasco.. It is turning into the biggest fraud /scam /money milking drain on funds in the history of the country... :mad:
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Title 9, IIRC. The kid gets more attention and the school district gets $6,000 a year for every kid put on pills.
 
denverpilot said:
What is the first rule about Fight Club? ;)
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I specifically worded it that way...


Trains aren't particularly standardized, sometimes not even within the same system. Couple this with the fact that railroad workers unions are way tougher than anything aviation could imagine.
 
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