Boots vs TKS?

flyersfan31

flyersfan31

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Freiburgfan31
Would you rather have boots or TKS?

Would you rather have FIKI with boots or non-FIKI with TKS if that were the choice?

Curious about the opinions of those who have flown either, and particularly those who have flown both.

For me, it seems that TKS would be the superior system, working as it does on the whole wing. Still, I've flown with neither, so I'm not really one to judge.
 
ive only flown with boots.

I've heard that TKS is the kind of thing that has to be on before the ice starts. But that was second hand from a guy flying a Cirrus, which is not FIKI, so I have no idea how accurate that is for the certified system.
 
Flown with both. Both have problems. A well maintained boot system weighs less and has no replaceables.....but TKS is superior in runback ice.
 
Properly used and maintained, either one works well...lots of time with boots in Barons and King Airs, currently flying Hawkers with TKS, and really don't have a problem with having either one on an airplane, although the early Hawkers were kind of short on TKS capacity.

I think the lack of ice on a TKS airplane can lull people into complacency, though...if you don't see the ice accumulate, you don't think it's so bad. I know of one guy who was tooling around in his FIKI-TKS Baron in what most guys were calling "severe icing"...everybody else was working to get out of it, and he was fat, dumb, and happy. Had any part of that system failed, there's a good chance he'd be dead right now, to put it bluntly.

Fly safe!

David
 
interesting point david. I never thought about it that way. It is nice to know the rate of accumulation AND to be able to remove it.
 
At the end of the day, I know that I can run out of TKS fluid, but as long as my engines are running, I've still got power to the boots. That, to my thinking tips the scales in favor of boots.

But I'd rather have bleed air hot wings than either.
 
as far as the cirrus goes, it is true that you have to turn on the TKS before entering icing conditions........it takes a minute or two for the stuff to start coming out of the wings.
Interestingly, as a non FIKI aircraft, if you turn on the TKS before you enter icing conditions, as you're supposed to do, you are essentially breaking some FAR or another because if you know you're going to be flying into KI in a non KI airplane..........
 
I'm a boots and hot props guy in the P-Baron. I wouldn't hesitate to use TKS but it's a bit messy when you put your plane back in the hanger. Also, some folks have raised some issues about the long term effects of that fluid on some control connection systems. Both good or they wouldn't be certified. I don't like having to refill and carry around the TKS fluid. I like knowing all my systems are available for as long as they work <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I don't like having to refill and carry around the TKS fluid.

Best,

Dave
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Of course, unless you've got an approved installation for your spare TKS fluid, you can't legally carry it since it's HAZMAT. Gotta love those catch-22's.

Fly safe!

David
 
I have owned a booted Baron (not turbocharged), a booted T-210 and a KI Mooney (turbo). In my experience, I have found that a turbo is as helpful as boots or TKS. Neither the Baron or 210 was certified KI but the systems seemed adequate. Since I operate in a lot in the west, the Baron did not have the power at altitude to provide a good rate of climb thus marginal in ice. The turbos on the other two really did the job. In the 20 years or so that I have operated the deiced equipment I have had failures (leaks) with both boots and TKS. I think either system requires a lot of continual maintenance. The most important element in an icing situation is a savvy pilot. Having a fancy deice system will only buy you some time. It is up to the savvy pilot to figure out a way to exit the icing conditions as quickly as he can.
 
We have boots and hot props on the 1900. I've never used TKS, but like others have said, I like the idea of being able to remove the ice if it sneaks up on you and not having to worry about running out or cleaning up the fluid. The boots seem to work great, even in moderate icing, and so far they've been very reliable; as long as they test good in the preflight they seem to work well in flight, even when one side of the bleeds fails the boots can keep up with even unexpected icing encounters.
 
Ron Levy said:
At the end of the day, I know that I can run out of TKS fluid, but as long as my engines are running, I've still got power to the boots. That, to my thinking tips the scales in favor of boots.

But I'd rather have bleed air hot wings than either.
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AND INLET HEAT. INLET HEAT!
 
scottd said:
Most anti/deice systems are located on the leading edges where most of the icing accretes. My biggest concern with boots is collecting ice behind the protected surfaces. Often SLD will penetrate the boundary layer behind the boots. This ice can't be removed. TKS, on the other hand, will elminate this icing threat as long as the system is used appropriately. Runback icing isn't as much of an issue with TKS. Personally, I'd want my system to protect me from the worst possible encounter. In other words, leading edge icing is less lethal than runback icing.
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Just a note for those that may not know, conditions that result in runback ice are also conditions for which NEITHER system is certified.

But as Scott said, if you accidently run into it, TKS has the advantage here. IIRC, the "severe icing" condition I mentioned in my earlier post was a freezing drizzle situation, where runback ice would have been making things ugly for everyone else, but the guy in the TKS Baron couldn't tell the difference.

Fly safe!

David
 
What does SLD mean? Probably something obvious--but I'm curious.
 
jesse said:
What does SLD mean? Probably something obvious--but I'm curious.
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it basically means its highly probably you are going to be really screwed if you try to fly through it.
 
tonycondon said:
it basically means its highly probably you are going to be really screwed if you try to fly through it.
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It's what brought down the plane over Roselawn, IN, on Halloween a few years ago.

http://www.eetronics.com/icing_air_crashs.htm said:
[SIZE=+3]F[/SIZE]light 4184 was stuck in a holding pattern late on Halloween afternoon, waiting to land at Chicago's O'Hare airport. The weather was lousy: drizzle at 10,000 feet, the temperature near freezing. In the cockpit of the ATR-72 twin turboprop, the pilots flipped on the wing de-icers, letting the autopilot guide the aircraft through a series of lazy turns. The plane had been circling for 30 minutes. Things were getting a little boring.
Then it happened. Suddenly, the autopilot popped off, and the plane flipped on its side in a 70-degree roll. The pilots grabbed the control wheels and fought it. The plane started to come around, but only for an instant. Then it rolled farther right, nearly turning over, its nose pitched down. Within seconds, the plane was inverted, turning a full spiral before it slammed into a muddy bean field near Roselawn, Ind. The pilots, two flight attendants and 64 passengers died. The whole thing took 25 seconds.
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I've watched them splat on the boot, run back and freeze. IMMEDIATE 180. Lick wounds. Then talk to center.....
 
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bbchien said:
I've watched them splat on the boot, run back and freeze. IMMEDIATE 360. Lick wounds. Then talk to center.....
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Me, I'd rather do an immediate 180 and get out of there, but if you think that your FIKI certification allows you to circle in it, then more power to you!:rofl::rofl:
 
bbchien said:
Ugh. I meant 180! Corrected!
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I knew you did, hence the smilies! As we both know, FIKI does nothing but give you a little more time to execute your ice escape plan, ESPECIALLY if you have SLD or severe icing!
 
I worry any time I hear freezing rain. I don't think that would change no matter what the anti-ice system was, short of a pair of turbofans.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I worry any time I hear freezing rain. I don't think that would change no matter what the anti-ice system was, short of a pair of turbofans.
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Jets don't have it any easier. This was the accident here in Augusta about a month ago; I landed about an hour before she took off. It was light rain when we landed, light freezing rain about 20 minutes later with heavier precip on the way. Sounds like she thought freezing raid wasn't that much of a concern.
 
Teller1900 said:
Jets don't have it any easier. This was the accident here in Augusta about a month ago; I landed about an hour before she took off. It was light rain when we landed, light freezing rain about 20 minutes later with heavier precip on the way. Sounds like she thought freezing raid wasn't that much of a concern.
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What kind of raid should she have been concerned about?

My next door neighbor claims he landed a NWA DC9 with 4-6 inches of ice on all unprotected surfaces plus a several buildups behind the heated leading edges. Most of that was collected on approach and it was his opinion that a go around would have been marginal at best. He said he had already decided that he'd bust minimums and land/crash on the runway if necessary.
 
lancefisher said:
Sounds rather corrosive.
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What about running exhaust in ABS pipe out to the wing tips, in the leading edge? Is that done? I understand the Predator drone runs exhaust to the tail as part of the noise control, in ABS or similar light pipe.
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
What about running exhaust in ABS pipe out to the wing tips, in the leading edge? Is that done? I understand the Predator drone runs exhaust to the tail as part of the noise control, in ABS or similar light pipe.
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A. the exhaust in question is used to heat the metal leading edges...ABS has better insulating qualities than would allow the leading edge to heat up enough, especially in light of the fact that...

B. Convairs, with their big-hp radial engines STILL didn't generate enough exhaust heat to do the job well.

Fly safe!

David
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
What about running exhaust in ABS pipe out to the wing tips, in the leading edge? Is that done? I understand the Predator drone runs exhaust to the tail as part of the noise control, in ABS or similar light pipe.
Click to expand...

We use exhaust to heat the engine inlet lip. There's a little metal tube inside one of the exhaust stacks that pulls exhaust through the inlet lip, and then vents it out a similar tube in the other stack. I have no idea how they get around the corrosion issue.
 
They probably replace it all the time.

I like boots, because my choice has always been bare metal or boots. I suspect that I would also like the TKS if I used it, but . . .

Fly safe out there, ice is scary

~ Christopher
 
Teller1900 said:
We use exhaust to heat the engine inlet lip. There's a little metal tube inside one of the exhaust stacks that pulls exhaust through the inlet lip, and then vents it out a similar tube in the other stack. I have no idea how they get around the corrosion issue.
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Note that this is turbine exhaust, not piston exhaust...pretty fair difference in the volume/temperature, and possibly even the chemical composition.

Stainless steel inlet lip, I believe, is probably the biggest corrotion-preventing factor.

Fly safe!

David
 
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