Bo down Surprise AZ

pmanton

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There was a quick blurb on Fox News yesterday. At least one fatality in a Bonanza that went down shortly after take off. The video showed the fuselage upside down minus the wings and tail section with the gear still down.
RIP

Paul
Salome, AZ
 
This one, I guess; seems to have been a G35. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=187048
Plane-Crash.jpg
 
Engine quit? ask your self ....how many times has your car quit just after you started it and drove off!? As for me, in the last fourty years NEVER! In the aircrft I've flown during that time, never. Yet you read the accident reports and lots of them quit upon takeoff. Why? Poor maint? Water in the gas? no gas? anyone?
 
Engine quit? ask your self ....how many times has your car quit just after you started it and drove off!? As for me, in the last fourty years NEVER! In the aircrft I've flown during that time, never. Yet you read the accident reports and lots of them quit upon takeoff. Why? Poor maint? Water in the gas? no gas? anyone?

That's a great questions....not specifically about this case but in generaI is there any good analysis showing what is the cause of most engine failure accidents? I would hazard to guess the most common cause is fuel exhaustion, but is there anything anyone has seen showing percentages, etc?
 
There have been a few over the years that water in the gas comes up. Jet fuel in the tank has come up a couple times in recent years. No accusations, just things to think about
 
There's plenty of data in most accident reports to know the cause of most engine failures, but besides that, the real take away is that they do quit from time to time, and you'd better have a plan for it.

Convincing yourself that it won't happen to you, because you've always owned reliable cars, isn't a plan. It's not a car, and you can't coast to a stop on the side of the road.

A single is just an overpowered motor-glider in terms of powerplant failure planning. Takeoffs are a particular challenge in that your options are limited. At some airports, you're not briefing how you'll safely land the thing, you're briefing what will hurt the least to hit, if you're honest about it.

Have some lovely photos of mangled engine parts where the answer to the mystery of why the cylinders and pistons are all melted and mangled during a night engine failure, was simply "undetected metallurgy problem". The CFI and student landed it safely on a runway. Barely. Another 100' lower and he outcome would have been worse.
 
Engine quit? ask your self ....how many times has your car quit just after you started it and drove off!? As for me, in the last fourty years NEVER! In the aircrft I've flown during that time, never. Yet you read the accident reports and lots of them quit upon takeoff. Why? Poor maint? Water in the gas? no gas? anyone?

It might not be related to the engine, the other condition that would rear its ugly head shortly after takeoff would be a W&B issue...
 
My Stearman had to be shut down as it had loud expensive noises at 1500 feet.i was very lucky . I did what I was taught , lowered the nose , kept up my speed and landed in a farmers field with no damage. It turned out to be lousy mechanic who did not set valves properly, loose nut came off rocker arm. Two flying hours prior to this I was over the chesapeake bay with passenger taking pictures of sail boat raceand regardless of my " plan" I probably would have flipped and drowned. Plans are great while home in your easy chair but in a split second of a real engine failure who knows how you'd react in spite of your " plan" reading the accident reports you find many students with CFIs attempt a 180 at low altitude. Not good. I attribute many of these failures to poor maint, lousy mechanics and or cost cutting by the owner. ( I had to stretch the glide but by this time knew the Stearman well and knew by sound how I was doing . Probably had three hundred hours in it at that time ....lucky.
 
Mine happened in an Aeronca Champ. I took an intersection departure, flying if from the back seat. As soon as I didn't have enough room to land, I lost a cylinder due to a hole in the piston. The radio was a battery operated thing in the front seat. I yelled for the kid up front to tell the tower we were going to try to return. I had just enough power to turn around and land. We were both young and slim back then. :) To this day I'll not accept an intersection take off.

Paul
Salome, AZ
 
My Stearman had to be shut down as it had loud expensive noises at 1500 feet.i was very lucky . I did what I was taught , lowered the nose , kept up my speed and landed in a farmers field with no damage. It turned out to be lousy mechanic who did not set valves properly, loose nut came off rocker arm. Two flying hours prior to this I was over the chesapeake bay with passenger taking pictures of sail boat raceand regardless of my " plan" I probably would have flipped and drowned. Plans are great while home in your easy chair but in a split second of a real engine failure who knows how you'd react in spite of your " plan" reading the accident reports you find many students with CFIs attempt a 180 at low altitude. Not good. I attribute many of these failures to poor maint, lousy mechanics and or cost cutting by the owner. ( I had to stretch the glide but by this time knew the Stearman well and knew by sound how I was doing . Probably had three hundred hours in it at that time ....lucky.

You didn't have to be over the bay in a single, without a plan other than ditching, that was a personal choice and risk taken.

Ran the gauntlet and took your chances, doesn't matter if the mechanic caused it, or a hairline crack in some metal part that couldn't be seen upon inspection.

As far as "what you'll do" when it finally happens, you still have the choice to follow your plan, or not. Adrenaline and emotions are controllable things, but not all learn how to control them in controlled environments to make it easier to do in uncontrolled ones.

If you've allowed them to overtake rational thought, you'll probably do the wrong thing. Might get away with it, might not.

Helps to know how you react in similar but less deadly situations outside of a cockpit. You'll probably do the same thing in the cockpit unless you've trained it away. Folks who fly often partake in other motorsports or activities that aren't forgiving of weak skills or equipment failures. Many of those are marginally safer than aviation and a few "events" in those activities will show you all you need to know about yourself and how you'll react.

Even just losing control of a car on snow and ice and how you handle that will be an indication of how you'll handle in-flight emergencies. If you tend to freeze and watch the world go by, you'll do it in the airplane, too.

Can show you plenty of failures where no expense was spared, the mechanic was the best possible for the type, and crap still broke. Don't let the primacy of your first engine out, convince you it'll always be someone's fault. Nor that hiring the best will keep it from happening again.

It doesn't matter in the air anyway. Maybe the mechanic screwed up, maybe the casting machine making the part had a design flaw, maybe it's just not your day. Fly the plan, and you'll have already figured out your best survival option. Over the bay, you had a weak one. Over land, you picked a field and landed in it.

The thread is about a Bo on a takeoff, not a failure in cruise. In cruise, you get to choose an altitude. Not so much during a climb out. You had more options and time than a pilot has during a takeoff. Takeoffs without a plan for the mill quitting don't leave much time to make up a plan on the spot.

Over the bay, you had a very weak plan, and that's certainly not a judgement of you, you're allowed to have a weak plan, but it's just fact. Ditching a Stearman is not high on anyone's list of things they'd probably want to attempt. Perhaps the photos were worth it, perhaps not, that's your call as PIC.

Over land, where your engine quit, you either already had that field in sight and that was your plan, or you made your plan quickly at the moment it failed. Lots and lots of time compared to a low level departure failure.

Either way, pretty normal stuff for flying a single.

The suck, squeeze, bang, blow thing up front doesn't have any backup. That's just the reality of it. You make your peace with it as you push the throttle up and commit to going aloft.

Doesn't matter if you have a "lousy" mechanic or a great one, because you won't survive to fire him, if you're not mentally prepared for the thing to quit at any time.

I don't see your ability to land your Stearman in a farm field as luck. But you had time to plan it. Even if the plan was quickly done at altitude. We don't get that luxury below about 800' in most powered aircraft. Better to know what has to happen than attempt to make it up when you're that low.

Hasn't been a machine built yet that won't break. The assumption should always be that they will.
 
Engine quit? ask your self ....how many times has your car quit just after you started it and drove off!? As for me, in the last fourty years NEVER! In the aircrft I've flown during that time, never. Yet you read the accident reports and lots of them quit upon takeoff. Why? Poor maint? Water in the gas? no gas? anyone?

I would add that (unless you drive like you're at the Indy 500) you don't go WOT upon putting your car in drive or 1st gear, every time you get in it. In an aircraft, we go to max power at the start of our "drive" every time. A lot of load on rotating parts. Plus more heat, less cooling due to lower airspeed in climb, etc.
 
I would add that (unless you drive like you're at the Indy 500) you don't go WOT upon putting your car in drive or 1st gear, every time you get in it. In an aircraft, we go to max power at the start of our "drive" every time. A lot of load on rotating parts. Plus more heat, less cooling due to lower airspeed in climb, etc.
Very true and I mentioned this before in another conversation. Also true that some don't warm the engine up enough or too much. I should mention that the reply from Denver pilot previous to your post is for the most part hot air . This is based on my 4000 pic or more total hours with a lot of it being in taildraggers. While this is not a great deal of airtime compared to some, I gained considerable knowledge flying often times with real pros in mu2s, aero commanders and aerostars sitting in the right seat. I also experienced an engine out at teterboro in a 201 mooney on takeoff. Had I asked for an intersection t.o. I would have died. As it was, when it quit, I quickly put the gear down and landed using up the entire runway. At the end were apartment houses. The cause was a Recent annual with the mechanic not checking the bottom gas filter under the seat. It was full of crap and decided to quit at this time. Could have easily quit coming up the river past the statue of liberty, once again low which was ordered by the tower. Once again, lucky.
 
Very true and I mentioned this before in another conversation. Also true that some don't warm the engine up enough or too much. I should mention that the reply from Denver pilot previous to your post is for the most part hot air . This is based on my 4000 pic or more total hours with a lot of it being in taildraggers. While this is not a great deal of airtime compared to some, I gained considerable knowledge flying often times with real pros in mu2s, aero commanders and aerostars sitting in the right seat. I also experienced an engine out at teterboro in a 201 mooney on takeoff. Had I asked for an intersection t.o. I would have died. As it was, when it quit, I quickly put the gear down and landed using up the entire runway. At the end were apartment houses. The cause was a Recent annual with the mechanic not checking the bottom gas filter under the seat. It was full of crap and decided to quit at this time. Could have easily quit coming up the river past the statue of liberty, once again low which was ordered by the tower. Once again, lucky.

Jimmy has a hard time admitting he's just *creating* a plan on the fly. The engine out on the Mooney, he could have just as easily briefed that he would land on the remaining runway instead of just doing it.

It's how pro crews do it, and it was taught to me and demanded of me by a pilot with a lot more than 4000 hours of riding along in pro-flown airplanes. It was part of the TOLD data and the non-optional pre-departure briefing.

Some people can rely on their superior reaction times and skill, others plan so they don't have to.

He does seem to have a higher incidence of mechanics trying kill him than anyone else here, though. Take that for whatever it's worth. I don't care, but you don't see everyone here whining about "bad annuals" and "bad maintenance".

For a departure over an apartment complex, a failure before an altitude high enough to clear it, would simply be briefed exactly as he did it, land in the remaining runway, even if you're going to hit the fence. The fence is more survivable than the apartment building.

No hot air here, just proper pre-departure planning. Sometimes the options suck, and you brief that they do.

If you're not briefing your departures, you'd better be as good as Jimmy. Every single time.
 
You never know. This happened to me right after takeoff. Lucky I landed safe on the runwaycrank 1.jpg crank 2.jpg in a Christen Eagle that glides like a brick!
 
Looks like a faulty casting. Strong crank though, lasted a long time before actually failing!
 
Engine quit? ask your self ....how many times has your car quit just after you started it and drove off!? As for me, in the last fourty years NEVER! In the aircrft I've flown during that time, never. Yet you read the accident reports and lots of them quit upon takeoff. Why? Poor maint? Water in the gas? no gas? anyone?

We don't run 90-100% continuous power in 40 year old cars when we drive to work.
 
Is that a rogue air pocket inside the steel?
 
We don't run 90-100% continuous power in 40 year old cars when we drive to work.

I don't run 90-100% continuous power when I fly aside from the departure climbout. But my engine is designed to run full power for 2000 hours, according to Lycoming. How about yours?
 
Is that a rogue air pocket inside the steel?

No. My guess would be a slip dislocation, but Mat Sci 101 was a long time ago. It's just an irregularity in the molecular structure of the steel, likely caused by a bad heat treat process (not hot enough, maybe cooled at the wrong rate). Proper heat treating changes the molecular structure, how all of the different iron, carbon and assorted other atoms are stacked up. Bad stacks fail when they are bad enough . . .
 
I don't run 90-100% continuous power when I fly aside from the departure climbout. But my engine is designed to run full power for 2000 hours, according to Lycoming. How about yours?

They are all "designed" to run for 1800-2000 hours at full power. Just saying that is harder on the engine than what a typical car engine goes through.
 
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