Jaybird180
Final Approach
I couldn't figure out how the sun was in his eyes. Correct me if I'm wrong but the sun travels East to West via a Northern route and so the sun should not have been a factor at this time in the morning.
Blinded by the Sun- NTSB Report
- Thread starter Jaybird180
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nosehair
Cleared for Takeoff
The sun travels from E(ese to se depending on your location and time of year) across the SOUTHERN sky to set in the W(wsw or sw).
Jaybird180
Final Approach
What do you think caused the accident? Wake turbulence? Jet wash?
azure
Final Approach
Could have been wake turbulence after the Gulfstream overflew them. But think about it: on left downwind for rwy 3, the Cirrus was on a SWerly heading, 210 or so (though I'm too lazy to look up the magnetic variation in Arizona but it's easterly, maybe 10 degrees, figure 220 true) looking for traffic on final to his left (to the SE), the sun probably was in his eyes. It was morning, in December, the sun would have been fairly low. It makes perfect sense to me.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
But he didn't see the traffic cross his nose either, which puzzles me. I wonder how far out did the G550 do his base leg.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Starting to make sense to me too.
Okay...what can I learn from this in the way of mitigations?
HPNPilot1200
En-Route
Don't turn base until the final traffic is in sight or the tower advises the position of the other aircraft (closer to the field than your position) and recommends or instructs you to turn base. Also give yourself plenty of room behind a heavy aircraft and fly a slightly steeper approach to mitigate a potential wake turbulence encounter.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Slow down early - don't be in such a rush when entering the pattern, square your turns/don't cut corners especially when there is other traffic you are following.
Hard to say for absolute certain, but this sounds like he managed to get himself too close to the preceeding traffic because he couldn't see them. When he finally did pick up the Gulfstream, he was so close that he needed to slow down significantly to avoid a go-around. Use S-turns if necessary to increase spacing....but WATCH your airspeed.....that is what this guy failed to do. WT may have been a factor, but I kind of doubt it. I suspect the Cirrus was well above the approach path of the Gulfstream on final (he would have had to be to slow down that much) and he flat out stalled it/spun it. If you listen to the tapes, he had lost control before the tower actually gave him the official go-around.
I like to fly fast approaches and make short approaches whenever I get the chance, BUT if I know I'm following somebody, I make darn sure that I have them in sight and have a good feel for my spacing before I start to increase speed. Sometimes that means throwing alot of flaps out and slowing up on the downwind and not being so quick to turn base. Whether or not the airframe had anything to do with it, who knows, but I will say that most Cirrus drivers I see flying around don't like to fly slow.
HPNPilot1200
En-Route
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
That was earlier in the approach though......I believe he would have flown through any WT from the overflifght well before he lost control.
azure
Final Approach
That's a good point, but maybe he stall/spun it trying to get back on the glide path -- or trying to climb above the WT -- after the WT knocked him for a loop. Of course it could be the WT had nothing to do with it, and he recovered just fine and then committed some other Stupid Pilot Trick. Hopefully the surviving pax will help fill in the details later on.
Morne
Line Up and Wait
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Morne
Just because the traffic ahead of you has turned final doesn't mean you can turn base. You wait until they have passed you going the other way. If you can't find them in the sky, you let tower call your base leg.
Almost every time I wait to shed speed I end up going around. Nowadays I figure I'll get on the ground quicker if I just do one nice slow circuit of the pattern and stay solidly ahead of the plane.
Agree totally. Better to be slowed down to your pattern speed early and thus have more time/concentration for the other taks than to do it late and possibly miss something. Going slower also gives you more time to look outside and see/avoid traffic.
Almost every time I wait to shed speed I end up going around. Nowadays I figure I'll get on the ground quicker if I just do one nice slow circuit of the pattern and stay solidly ahead of the plane.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was once flying along fat dumb and happy with a student teaching them how to land. We were on final, cleared to land. There was another bugsmasher somewhere on downwind that was told he was number 2. Next thing I know I see a 172 on base and we're on a collision course. Tower suddenly realizes the guy turned base in front of us and instructs the guy to turn back to downwind immediately. His turn was towards us which then put him headed towards us head-on. We were full flaps in a C150 without much airspeed. I took control of the airplane and went for the deck to the left - because going down is about the only thing our configuration could do.
Lesson? Pay attention to the other aircraft. Don't turn base unless you know for damn sure you're not about to cut off the guy you're following.
Lesson? Pay attention to the other aircraft. Don't turn base unless you know for damn sure you're not about to cut off the guy you're following.
woodstock
Final Approach
He turned RIGHT to go back to base (assuming left hand pattern)? That wasn't too bright.
dmspilot
Final Approach
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It was less than a minute between the overflight and the accident. Presumably he was still behind the Gulfstream after the overflight so wake turbulence could have been encountered at any time. If he maintained a glidepath 200' below the Gulfstream's glidepath it would have taken time for the vortices to descend. Maybe a minute?
I once had a 737 fly 500' over me at a 90 degree angle and never felt a thing, though ATC gave me a wake turbulence advisory.
How would the passenger have survived if it was a stall/spin? Has that ever happened before?
"Seconds later, the controller advised the Cirrus pilot that the Gulfstream was to his left and on final approach, and the Cirrus turned onto the base leg. Subsequently, as the Cirrus was entering the final approach leg and was about 1,900 feet (based upon the airplane’s Mode C transponder altitude), the Gulfstream overflew the Cirrus about 2,100 feet (Mode C transponder altitude)."
How did that happen? Sounds like the controller made a mistake.
I once had a 737 fly 500' over me at a 90 degree angle and never felt a thing, though ATC gave me a wake turbulence advisory.
How would the passenger have survived if it was a stall/spin? Has that ever happened before?
"Seconds later, the controller advised the Cirrus pilot that the Gulfstream was to his left and on final approach, and the Cirrus turned onto the base leg. Subsequently, as the Cirrus was entering the final approach leg and was about 1,900 feet (based upon the airplane’s Mode C transponder altitude), the Gulfstream overflew the Cirrus about 2,100 feet (Mode C transponder altitude)."
How did that happen? Sounds like the controller made a mistake.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was final - he was right downwind and was supposed to turn base behind me. He turned right base in front of me and I caught it just about the same moment the tower caught it. The tower instructed him to return to downwind immediately and he turned left which put him heading directly towards me head-on while he was doing that turn. It was too close for my liking, which is why I cranked a steep left turn and dove for the deck. It was pretty damn close - I was able to get out a quick "82U is going left" on the radio. Tower thanked me for my effort. Sometimes right-of-way be damned, you need to do something quickly. I went for the direction that got me away from his flight path in the shortest amount of time.
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think it is more a mistake in the wording of the prelim report.....I thkn the were reporting the altitude that the Gulfstream passed the same point where the Cirrus turned final. Since Tower told the Cirrus that the Gulftstream was to his left on final (Cirrus was still on downwind turning to base at that point). In other words, if that was the case, the Gulfstream would have had to do a 360 to actually overfly him.
Not sure of the ground track of the Cirrus, but depending on how fast he was going and how far downwind he got, Tower might have rushed to clear him for the base turn so he wouldn't hit Squaw Peek.
DutchessFlier
Line Up and Wait
Head on a swivel at all times!
My primary CFI pounded into my brain that 'See and Avoid' means just that.
Perhaps the PIC should have told the controller that his vision was blocked by the sun and that he did not have the traffic in sight, and like others have said, not turn until the traffic was confirmed off of his wing, ask to extend his downwind, etc. Not placing blame or anything, just working through the sequence of events.
My primary CFI pounded into my brain that 'See and Avoid' means just that.
Perhaps the PIC should have told the controller that his vision was blocked by the sun and that he did not have the traffic in sight, and like others have said, not turn until the traffic was confirmed off of his wing, ask to extend his downwind, etc. Not placing blame or anything, just working through the sequence of events.
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onwards
Pattern Altitude
I am a noob pilot, so forgive me if what I say makes no sense, but... could this have been caused by the Cirrus pilot turning off the autopilot in an emergency and attempting an evasive maneuver too close to the ground? if you are really used to the AP doing all the work for you until 200ft above ground, and you suddenly have to fly the plane yourself, would it not be possible to sort of lose it for a moment? at this low of an altitude, just a moment is all it takes.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Seems like a normal traffic pattern to me. It would be too high of a workload to fly a pattern with A/P. I was with a guy who did it for kicks but ... wasn't worth it.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Towered airport and my visibility is impaired? I ask tower to call my base leg when traffic isn't a factor.
I don't know any VFR pilots (Cirrus drivers or otherwise) that use the AP in the pattern. YMMV. I can see using coupled-AP on a minimums IFR approach to DA, but not in VMC.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
You see where it got the Cirrus driver.
I'm thinking the controller may bear some responsibility on this one.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly...in this case, the tower did call his base.
Morne
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Where did you get that from?
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
LiveATC.net
MoltenLava
Pre-Flight
Here's the approximate transcript from KSDL tower thanks to liveatc.net.
50P to extend downwind for #2
Gulfstream clear to land on RWY 3
50P Gulfstream is at your 11 o'clock
50P Gulfstream on your left for final
50P confirm Gulfstream in sight
50P stand by for possible go around
50P start climb go around
Cirrus 50P acknowledged all the transmissions directed to it except for the last request for go around. Presumably Cirrus was on a spiral already when go around was requested. The transmission doesn't show Gulfstream overflying Cirrus prior to go around, but maybe that's what actually happened. 50P did acknowledge Gulfstream in sight when tower asked. From the transcript alone I'm not sure if there is any mishandling of traffic from the tower.
50P to extend downwind for #2
Gulfstream clear to land on RWY 3
50P Gulfstream is at your 11 o'clock
50P Gulfstream on your left for final
50P confirm Gulfstream in sight
50P stand by for possible go around
50P start climb go around
Cirrus 50P acknowledged all the transmissions directed to it except for the last request for go around. Presumably Cirrus was on a spiral already when go around was requested. The transmission doesn't show Gulfstream overflying Cirrus prior to go around, but maybe that's what actually happened. 50P did acknowledge Gulfstream in sight when tower asked. From the transcript alone I'm not sure if there is any mishandling of traffic from the tower.
Piloto
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Piloto
Sun blinding could has been a factor. Why do you think baseball players wear baseball caps? No windshield overhead visor is going to be better than the traditional basebal cap. I always wear one during early morning or late afternoon. The longer the visor the better.
José
José
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Actually, I just listened to it again and apparently I was wrong - tower didn't call his base - she just told him to extend downwind and then kept pointing out the location of traffic to him (I think I was confused because there is a transmission on there where she tells a different aircraft that she'll call his x-wind).
Still, there is no way the Gulfstream actually overflew him....The Gulfstream was not a straight in final - it entered on a left base and crossed in front of the Cirrus when he was still on downwind.
This is sounding like maybe he didn't extend his downwind long enough.
airguy
Cleared for Takeoff
Agreed - Tower did not call base, only advised position of traffic. It's the pilots responsibility to maintain proper spacing unless he asks tower to provide spacing, or tower gives directions for spacing. It would have been appropriate for the pilot to ask for spacing direction in this case if he was sun-blinded, but not required. It also would have been helpful for tower to offer that, but not required. I do not see on the transcript that tower advised the Cirrus pilot about possible wake turbulence, that could be a factor.
Sounds like he made his own base and final turns and got into wake vortex on final. A G-550 can throw a mean wake vortex if you're following close in a Cirrus....
Sounds like he made his own base and final turns and got into wake vortex on final. A G-550 can throw a mean wake vortex if you're following close in a Cirrus....
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
He must have had a really large (airliner) pattern.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Fixed that for you!
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I've flown with 2 Cirrus pilots and neither of them had large patterns. Large patterns aren't exclusive to Cirrus pilots. I've seen people do it in training aircraft too.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, I know....I'm just taking the opportunity to bash Cirrus drivers, even though I'll probably be getting checked out in one in the near future.
denverpilot
Tied Down
"Skylane 79M extend your base, traffic is a Gobosh on what looks to be about a two mile left base. I'll call your base.... Actually it doesn't look like he's started his base yet. Skylane 79M can you make a short approach? I'm going to move you ahead of him in the sequence."
"Affirmative, 79M."
"Skylane 79M cleared to land runway 35 Left."
"Cleared to land 35 Left, 79M"
"Gobosh 77K, you're now number two to follow a Skylane on a close in left base..."
I love good controllers!
