"Blanket" Bravo Clearance

TexasPilot71

TexasPilot71

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Jeff
Good morning all! This is my first post here and I look forward to interacting with many of you.

I wanted to start this thread to highlight a strange "blanket Bravo clearance" that I heard on frequency a couple weeks ago. The controller stated "Attention all aircraft that are going into Addison, you can just assume at this point that you are cleared into bravo airspace".

I had already been cleared into Bravo personally (flying VFR obviously), so this approach controller's instruction was for others. I know I would have asked for a specific clearance had I not already had one, but I wanted to get everybody's thoughts on this. Specifically:

1) Is this a valid instruction?
2) Would you accept it or ask for your own personal clearance?
3) Have you ever received or heard a similar "blanket" clearance?

The actual audio is at the 12:19 mark at the link below:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kads/KADS-App-Jun-02-2013-2300Z.mp3

Appreciate your input!

Jeff
 
Jeff:

First of all, welcome to Pilots of America -- it's good to have you here!

On point, I am also based in Addison, and while I have never heard that particular instruction before, it doesn't surprise me that it might have occurred. With the significant volume of training activity, it would not surprise me if the Regional Approach controller wants the flexibility to vector aircraft for sequence with the occasional excursion into the B airspace, without having to repeatedly responded to breathless inquiries regarding b clearance.

All that said, I would be uncomfortable relying upon an open broadcast of b clearance, rather than a personally -- issued one. Since most of my flights are to and from the south, I am accustomed to getting a class B. clearance immediately upon being handed off from Fort Worth Center to Regional Approach, and if I don't get it, I ask for it.

Tell us more about your flying, and about yourself -- there is a pretty solid contingent of Pilots of America participants in the DFW area, and we've been known to have dinner or organize a fly in from time to time.
 
Isn't one of the requirements for bravo ops to be in two way radio communication?

I'm sure one of the controllers will be along shortly
 
Skylane81E said:
Isn't one of the requirements for bravo ops to be in two way radio communication?

I'm sure one of the controllers will be along shortly
Click to expand...

I seem to remember needing to be specifically cleared in with your call sign... Both Explicitly stated that is.

I am also based in the DFW area.
 
The frequency was very busy, and immediately before the controller issued the "blanket" clearance, someone called asking to confirm cleared into the bravo, so he probably felt that he didn't have time for calls of that nature. I also noticed that he specified traffic going into Addison. (I'm not taking a position on whether it is or is not kosher to do that way.)
 
Not sure exactly how I'd handle this. At the very least I'd make a radio call to get something that I understand that I've been cleared into bravo on tape prior to entering the airspace.

Have you considered calling regional approach and asking them about this situation? I would think you'd be in a world of hurt if you entered bravo airspace relying on the blanket clearance and you caused a loss of separation.

BTW- I'm based at ADS as well
 
Thanks for the welcome, Smooth Talker. I've flown in/out of ADS for about 13 years on and off. Moved away for several years then back about 4 years ago. Most of my flying is also out of the area and usually receive the bravo clearance after departure. I'm a member of the RFC flying club and got checked out in their Bonanzas (F33) in April. Really enjoying that transition.

Thanks for everybody's comments. It was certainly the busiest day I've ever seen at ADS. More so on my departure about 2.5 hours earlier. Took over 30 minutes from taxi to takeoff. Then on the arrival they took me south past White Rock Lake then base and a 10 mile final to ADS. So I get what the controller was doing, but I had just never heard that "clearance" before and was curious if others (either in the DFW area or otherwise) had heard the same thing. And whether it was procedural or just a shortcut.

Regarding the question about two-way radio communication, that's implied because you have to have a clearance to enter Bravo. I'm just not sure if that "blanket" clearance would hold up in court if there was an FAA action against the pilot.

Good discussions so far. I am going to enjoy this place!
 
smccray said:
Have you considered calling regional approach and asking them about this situation?
Click to expand...

Great point! I hadn't thought to call them. I guess I would only hesitate because it might turn into a "CYA" situation and I may not get the best answer.
 
You could just write to the Chief Counsel and ask.

<ducks>
 
TexasPilot71 said:
...Regarding the question about two-way radio communication, that's implied because you have to have a clearance to enter Bravo. I'm just not sure if that "blanket" clearance would hold up in court if there was an FAA action against the pilot...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure either, but at minimum, I would want to be very careful to follow the controllers instructions correctly.
 
TexasPilot71 said:
Thanks for the welcome, Smooth Talker. I've flown in/out of ADS for about 13 years on and off. Moved away for several years then back about 4 years ago. Most of my flying is also out of the area and usually receive the bravo clearance after departure. I'm a member of the RFC flying club and got checked out in their Bonanzas (F33) in April. Really enjoying that transition.

Thanks for everybody's comments. It was certainly the busiest day I've ever seen at ADS. More so on my departure about 2.5 hours earlier. Took over 30 minutes from taxi to takeoff. Then on the arrival they took me south past White Rock Lake then base and a 10 mile final to ADS. So I get what the controller was doing, but I had just never heard that "clearance" before and was curious if others (either in the DFW area or otherwise) had heard the same thing. And whether it was procedural or just a shortcut.

Regarding the question about two-way radio communication, that's implied because you have to have a clearance to enter Bravo. I'm just not sure if that "blanket" clearance would hold up in court if there was an FAA action against the pilot.

Good discussions so far. I am going to enjoy this place!
Click to expand...

I think this is probably worthy of a call to the QA person at the TRACON. I'm sure the controller was busy, but what he was doing was contrary to the 7110.65. If there was a loss of separation, I suspect the the controller would be in some hot water. Either way, I would echo the other comment to accept an instruction with the acknowledgement that the controller's blanket authorization constituted a bravo clearance.

Since I don't think this is a systematic issue, I probably wouldn't file an ASRS, but there's nothing preventing you from doing so.
 
Welcome to PoA!

I'm based up at Denton (KDTO) and you're more than welcome to come visit someday.

I agree with the others saying that I'm not comfortable accepting a blanket clearance, and I'm not sure that's permitted.

To cover my own tuckus, I'd perfer to have on record the controller saying my tail# along with the clearance. This way, if something boomerangs badly, I've that detail covered.
 
Brad Z said:
I think this is probably worthy of a call to the QA person at the TRACON. I'm sure the controller was busy, but what he was doing was contrary to the 7110.65. If there was a loss of separation, I suspect the the controller would be in some hot water. Either way, I would echo the other comment to accept an instruction with the acknowledgement that the controller's blanket authorization constituted a bravo clearance.

Since I don't think this is a systematic issue, I probably wouldn't file an ASRS, but there's nothing preventing you from doing so.
Click to expand...

Good points. I hadn't even thought about a ASRS because I was directly issued a bravo clearance before this "blanket clearance". I do keep an ASRS form in my flight bag, by the way. Hope you all do even though most of us would file them electronically. Never know when you might need to get one in the mail before you have internet access.
 
I just listened to the audio file ... while I don't think it is a legal clearance, it seems like it was aimed at aircraft he was actively vectoring or otherwise gave explicit instructions to. In that situation, if he told me to fly a heading or extend my downwind in a way that entered the bravo, I'd be inclined to comply without questioning further. I wouldn't enter the bravo absent an instruction requiring me to do so though.

If I were you, though, I'd be inclined to file an ASRS report ... not to save your rear (as it doesn't sound like you ever entered the bravo under the blanket clearance), but rather to report a situation where there was a confusing and potentially unsafe instruction so perhaps similar situations won't happen in the future. Keep in mind that improving safety is the primary (stated) purpose of ASRS.
 
Sykes said:
In that situation, if he told me to fly a heading or extend my downwind in a way that entered the bravo, I'd be inclined to comply without questioning further. I wouldn't enter the bravo absent an instruction requiring me to do so though.
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The FAA legal folks disagree with you:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...10/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

First, you question whether the vectoring providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under 91.131(a)(1) to enter the Los Angles Class B airspace. The answer is no. A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The issuance of a vector provides navigation information, but does not provide clearance from ATC to enter the subject airspace.
Click to expand...
 
Sykes said:
If I were you, though, I'd be inclined to file an ASRS report ... not to save your rear (as it doesn't sound like you ever entered the bravo under the blanket clearance), but rather to report a situation where there was a confusing and potentially unsafe instruction so perhaps similar situations won't happen in the future. Keep in mind that improving safety is the primary (stated) purpose of ASRS.
Click to expand...

Excellent points. I may just do so.

To put the day in context, I departed ADS about 2.5 hours earlier and got umm...lectured by the ground controller. Just to show how busy they were that day, listen to the audio file below starting at the 21:38 mark. I am N4416W. I was just entering the "Owens Ramp" from sierra to hold short of Alpha when I received this taxi onto the runway clearance (for those not familiar with ADS right now, part of taxiway A south of Sierra is undergoing repair so aircraft are being taxied across the active runway and even back-taxied at times). I probably should have told him where I was, but I had no idea he was talking to another airplane. It was a crazy day.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kads/KADS-Gnd-Jun-02-2013-1930Z.mp3

P.S. The apology is at 22:46
 
JeffDG said:
The FAA legal folks disagree with you:
Click to expand...

In the OP's scenario, if you get violated for not following an instruction, then you just point to the Chief Counsel interpretation that an ATC instruction is not a class B clearance.

On the other hand, if you get violated for following an instruction that takes you into the class B without an explicit clearance, then you just point to the recent interpretation that says that aircraft that are in contact with ATC have to follow ATC instructions, and tell them "Since this interpretation is later than the other one, obviously it supercedes it."

Problem solved! ;)
 
Palmpilot said:
In the OP's scenario, if you get violated for not following an instruction, then you just point to the Chief Counsel interpretation that an ATC instruction is not a class B clearance.

On the other hand, if you get violated for following an instruction that takes you into the class B without an explicit clearance, then you just point to the recent interpretation that says that aircraft that are in contact with ATC have to follow ATC instructions, and tell them "Since this interpretation is later than the other one, obviously it supercedes it."

Problem solved! ;)
Click to expand...

WIN-WIN!
 
JeffDG said:
The FAA legal folks disagree with you:
Click to expand...
My comment only applies to the situation described where the controller issued a "blanket ATC clearance". While I agree that the clearance probably wasn't valid, I'd be comfortable enough with the situation to do as described despite that.
 
Bizzarre deal for sure............

To take the "other"side.... What if a idiot got hold of a hand held radio and broadcast that same statement...... Then what ?:dunno::dunno::confused:
 
To err on the side of caution is the best method in my humble opinion. I have had to ask ATC to repeat the Bravo clearance on several occasions just so I get the Correct Terminology on Tape. I have heard of pilots going through hell because the controller gave them inaccurate or incomplete clearances. I have to admit though that I have been very pleased with the ATC here in the Dallas area. The Houston ATC can get a little rude sometimes but for the most part it's all good here in Texas. Oh and the same goes for my pleasant experience in San Francisco.... I have to remember to include the ATC in San Francisco now... LOL
 
I have to agree, Robert. The controllers here are outstanding and I in no way intended to embarrass or criticize them.

We have all been taught from the early part of our training to ALWAYS ask the controller if uncertain. Even controllers will tell you this. But when you get barked at by a controller for asking for such clarification (as has now happened to me twice at ADS), it's easy to get a little gun-shy when you know they're busy. We have to keep that natural hesitation at bay and never forget its our certificate on the line. Ask for clarification, and if something's amiss download it from LiveATC if possible and available. CYA
 
And it also sounds like a one time deal with that controller at that particular point in time.
 
I think an appropriate CYA response for the tape would be, "Cessna N99XYZ cleared to enter bravo. XYZ"
 
Agreed, Greg. I don't think it's a systemic problem, just crazy busy with a torn up taxiway to add to the mess. He apologized and I told him "no problem". We all make mistakes.
 
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