Black boxes

SixPapaCharlie

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Reading about the potential black boxes they are after in the ocean I got to wondering about how the flight data recorder and voice recorders work.

I believe I read that these things record on a loop that overwrites itself.
It is like 30 minutes right?

Was thinking even if they get the recorders, they likely won't get the moment when things went south since it kept flying for hours. Is there a way for them to go back to the time when the frequency change occurred?
 
It's more than 30 minutes. Maybe 2 hours, is what I recall.
 
I understood that the CVR was short, but the FDR had a much longer recording memory and would certainly cover the time period in question.
 
So if they keep recording in a loop, once recovered, are they just going to hear

"Nemo? Nemo?"

"Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim, swim."

"Wow! I wish I could speak whale."
 
I believe I read that these things record on a loop that overwrites itself.
It is like 30 minutes right?

That would be audio. Data is something like 25 hours IIRC.

Even if there was nothing on the audio except engine noises, at least that is a data point.
 
Also keep in mind that modern CVR and FDR have solid state memory instead of magnetic tape and foil. I think (don't quote me) that modern CVR's record more than the last 30 minutes. By regulation they have to record at least the last 30 minutes.
 
From Airbus A319/320/321 FCOM:

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) records :
‐ direct conversations between crew members in the cockpit
‐ all aural warnings sounded in the cockpit
‐ communications received and transmitted by radio
‐ intercommunications conversations between crew members
‐ announcements transmitted over the passenger address system, if PA reception is selected on the
third audio control panel.
Only the last 2 h of recording are retained.
The CVR system consists of :
‐ a remote microphone behind the overhead panel
‐ a “hot mike” function, which records the crew members voice directly from their microphone, even
if the push to talk switch is not activated.
‐ a crashproof four-track recorder, equipped with an underwater locating beacon, in the aft section
of the aircraft
‐ a control panel on the overhead panel.
It is energized automatically :
‐ on the ground during the first 5 min after the aircraft electrical network is energized
‐ on the ground with one engine running
‐ in flight
On the ground, it is stopped automatically 5 min after the last engine shutdown provided the CVR
jack is not used.
On the ground, the crew can energize the CVR manually by pressing the GND CTL pushbutton

The Flight Data Recording System, which records the mandatory parameters, consists of the
following components:
‐ A Flight Data Interface and Management Unit (FDIMU)
‐ A Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR)
‐ A three-axis Linear Accelerometer (LA)
The FDIMU collects and processes parameters from the SDACs, DMCs, FWCs, FCDCs, BSCU, the
DFDR event pushbutton, the GND CTL pushbutton and the Clock.
It stores the mandatory flight parameters in the DFDR.
The DFDR can store the last 25 h data, at least. It stores this data on a fireproof and shockproof
device. An underwater locator beacon is attached to the DFDR.
The linear accelerometer measures the acceleration of the aircraft along each of the three axes.
The QAR is an operational recorder that stores the same data as the DFDR. However the QAR is
more accessible for the maintenance crew.
The recording system is automatically active:
‐ On the ground, during the first five minutes after the aircraft electric network is energized.
‐ On the ground, after the first engine start.
‐ In flight (whether the engines are running or not).
On the ground, the recording system stops automatically five minutes after the second engine shuts
down.
 
Also keep in mind that modern CVR and FDR have solid state memory instead of magnetic tape and foil. I think (don't quote me) that modern CVR's record more than the last 30 minutes. By regulation they have to record at least the last 30 minutes.

Has the full solid state been mandated for Malaysian aircraft? And if so, do we know that is what they have? Just curious, I don't know the answer.
 
So if they keep recording in a loop, once recovered, are they just going to hear

"Nemo? Nemo?"

"Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim, swim."

"Wow! I wish I could speak whale."

The EAC is on the other side of Australia.
 
Has the full solid state been mandated for Malaysian aircraft? And if so, do we know that is what they have? Just curious, I don't know the answer.

Mandate or not, I can't imagine than any 777 has anything but solid state FDR and CVRs. Nobody makes the metal foil relics.
 
Mandate or not, I can't imagine than any 777 has anything but solid state FDR and CVRs. Nobody makes the metal foil relics.
I'd guess that a magnetic FDR or CVR would be as likely to installed in a 777 as would reciprocating radial engines on the wings.
 
Is the ping the same for both recorders?
Don't know for certain but I'd expect they'd be on approximately the same frequency with different duration and/or spacing to facilitate detection and differentiation by the same receiver. At least that's how I'd do it. :D
 
That's a pretty good way to do it.

Also, I would super glue em together so we only have to find one thing.
 
Just saw on the news today that they think the signals from the black box from the recent crash have now stopped. Will they ever find it?
 
Just saw on the news today that they think the signals from the black box from the recent crash have now stopped. Will they ever find it?

More accurately they haven't heard a signal in 6 days. I'll be very surprised of they do find it.
 
They said there was oil on the surface of the water they are going to test to see if it came from a plane. I suspect it came from one of the many search vessels in the area.

The longer this takes, the more I am convinced someone has this plane somewhere. There should be seat cushions and crap spreading out making a larger albeit less dense debris field.

Someone knows something.
 
One would think that if the plane had been hijacked the intelligence community would have gotten wind of it by now. If they have, they're remaining silent.
 
try finding a football sized object on an area the size of Texas, or maybe a smaller area as apparently they have zoomed in the search area, at 10000 ft underwater. If that plane crashed and sunk on the ocean I strongly believe that plane is long gone.
 
One would think that if the plane had been hijacked the intelligence community would have gotten wind of it by now. If they have, they're remaining silent.

Which is EXACTLY what intelligence communities do...;).......:yes:
 
I am back to the theory that they are loading it up with C4 somewhere.

Or I guess if they could have pulled a Hudson river style water landing it could have sank as one unit with no debris. But still no radio calls.

Honestly we will probably never know but we track rocks in out in space smaller than this plane (don't we? I really have no idea)
 
Honestly we will probably never know but we track rocks in out in space smaller than this plane (don't we? I really have no idea)


The last conversation I had with someone regarding the specific sizes, I started it with some basic math on free-space path loss at UHF and the receiver sensitivity numbers worked backward from a new regulation on interfering transmitter power limits and distance published by FCC to the receiver sites.

Halfway through the first sentence he spoke, the other person clammed up and said, "****. Now I have to report myself to the security office."

Heh. Oh well. The info is there if you look for it and can do the math.

I'll say, once you do, the numbers are pretty impressive. You can debate if the receivers combined via computer analysis is truly below the natural noise floor or just right at it, and just amazingly low through the ability to combine data from more than one receiver and mathematically find signal where there wasn't one on any individual receiver.

And I'm no RF engineer. Just a dummy with an interest in weak signal work. A real RF engineer can show ya with much cooler math. My rough guess made me whistle and I used really conservative numbers.

Best way to put it... We can probably see stuff far smaller than necessary in near-real-time.

Had to spend part of that $17T debt on something that actually accomplished a goal other than saving the asses of AIG execs, I guess.
 
By the way, the antennas are really f***ing big. And these are only one small part of the system.

pumyna8e.jpg


And computer controlled phased arrays are really f***ing cool.
 
I am back to the theory that they are loading it up with C4 somewhere.

Or I guess if they could have pulled a Hudson river style water landing it could have sank as one unit with no debris. But still no radio calls.

Honestly we will probably never know but we track rocks in out in space smaller than this plane (don't we? I really have no idea)


Naah, the logistics to do that are just to visible.
 
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