Bid Prices for wiring

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
So, I have been invited to bid on a few jobs for low voltage wire work...problem is, I have NO idea what to bid. How the hell do you figure out what a decent rate is? I don't even really know what my time is worth, except to say that it is probably much less than the going rate for my time. lol.

Any idea how to find out where to start the bid rate at?
 
Low voltage for what kind of service?

Is it comparable to installing Ethernet cable with terminations?
 
What is your goal? Are you trying to break into the business? Trying to make a name for yourself in this niche? Or only kinda-sorta interested if the money is good enough?

Also, have you done any of this work before? If not, are you aware of the issues involved?
 
I used a low-voltage contractor once at about $50 / per hour. That said--I think the guy was only concerned with breaking even on beer and cigarettes.
 
qbynewbie said:
What is your goal? Are you trying to break into the business? Trying to make a name for yourself in this niche? Or only kinda-sorta interested if the money is good enough?

Also, have you done any of this work before? If not, are you aware of the issues involved?
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I have done the work before many, many times, but was always told what I'd make (and I could accept or decline). This time, I'll be bidding myself.

My goal is to break into the business and make a name for myself at the same time. The jobs would be pretty big and would probably bring some return work if done properly.

KennyFlys said:
Low voltage for what kind of service?

Is it comparable to installing Ethernet cable with terminations?
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Mostly Alarm systems, actually.

jesse said:
I used a low-voltage contractor once at about $50 / per hour. That said--I think the guy was only concerned with breaking even on beer and cigarettes.
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See - that's why I asked. I would have bid MUCH less than $50/hr for it. I'm concerned that I'll underbid myself, and wind up laughed out of the job.
 
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Don't underbid on materials, either. Make the wiring a set price per foot to cover cost of terminals, etc. Boxes and such are on top of that.

Is this for built homes or new construction?
 
For the love of Pete, learn how to bid!!! Honestly, it would be better to stay in bed then lose your shirt.

That said, no one ever get an adequate handle on bidding no matter how much experience they possess.

The most common folly of the inexperienced is to bid too low. The pitfalls of doing that are many. Bad rep and inability to complete the job are but two.

I suggest instead of you beating your brains trying to provide a lump sum you instead come up with a cost plus bid. You estimate your costs then add for labor. It's a learning curve you have ahead of you and this type of bid will allow you to avoid screwing the pooch your first time out. T&M (time and material) is another 'safe' method of bidding. However, the savvy customer will realize the liability is theirs so you may have to do some selling to bring them onboard. Be honest and if it comes to it, confess you are new but are capable.

Soon (if you pay attention to job costing) you'll be able to come up with unit pricing which you provide to your customer with a mark-up.
 
RE: $50/hr.

Start with how much you want to pay yourself per hour. Multiple that figure by 3. Given overhead, A/R, etc, etc, etc...you won't be far off the mark.

(You do want to stay in business, right?) It's not a BS question. Many noobs don't plan for the future of the company, most seem satisfied with nothing more than this week's earnings...even if those "earnings" come out of the pocket of A/P.
 
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If you want to break into the business, you might have to underbid the existing competition for a while, until you get a name for yourself. Why should someone hire an unknown for more than an experienced and/or known company -- unless there's so much work to be had that customers are desperate to find someone to do the work?

Bidding below your cost to break in is fine if you have very deep pockets. If not, don't do that very often. It's not good to lose money on jobs.

I've electricians who posted the lowest bid. I've also, in some cases, told them that I wanted to change the bid to time and materials because my primary concern was getting the job done really well because it would be more expensive to go back later and try to repair work that wasn't done correctly because a contractor was trying to work in a low-bid situation.

If it were me, I'd stress quality of work as much as bid.
 
Find out the costs of materials. Add 50% - 100%. Then figure out your labor rate - if you want to break in...maybe $40-$45/hr.
 
re: underbidding to 'break into the trade': Unless the bid is for a contractor etc who might give you more bidness in future, or someone who is really going to be able to help by word of mouth I don't think this will work well.
 
EdFred said:
Find out the costs of materials. Add 50% - 100%. Then figure out your labor rate - if you want to break in...maybe $40-$45/hr.
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That is pricing 101 and is sound advise from Ed. As you get more experience you will learn where you can cut a deal and make adjustments to your bid.
 
I'm actually gonna be doing the same business among other consulting. I was a contractor / service company starting in 1975(! I was way under 20 years old.)

My model is like the plumber I hired. They charged $90 for a "truck roll" then $45(?)/ hour thereafter. My goal is I don't leave with less than $150. I'll price a standard consult at $200.

Like the advice above triple the cost of materials.

You NEED commercial liability and errors and omissions insurance. When you see what that costs, you'll see why you have to charge a big nut to walk in the door.
 
SkyHog said:
So, I have been invited to bid on a few jobs for low voltage wire work...problem is, I have NO idea what to bid. How the hell do you figure out what a decent rate is? I don't even really know what my time is worth, except to say that it is probably much less than the going rate for my time. lol.

Any idea how to find out where to start the bid rate at?
Click to expand...


Ok, calculate materials as close as you can, as well as your time at $60hr (not the cheapest billing rate, nor the most expensive. NEVER be the cheapest. Two factors there, experienced contractors typically equate lowest bidder with incompetent, and most people who hire the lowest bidder are a PITA to work for and get your money out of.) Then take that figure and add some margin on top of it since there's always something that bites you in the a-- and costs you time. Track your time accurately, if you come in under, bill accurately for less money than your bid. If you come in over for reasons other than a change order stick to your bid.

If the job is more complicated than you have the ability to accurately gauge the time, be honest and tell them "I charge time and materials on a job like this." Honest straight forward billing attitude (never be a low bidder and then come in with overages. If you're trying to develope a business doing this, there is no faster way to shoot yourself in the foot other than crappy work or taking so long you hold up other crews.) and quality work will keep the calls coming.
 
Can't really help you out with what your labor rate should be, but publications such as Means will give generally prevaling labor rates. 2-3X base labor to cover overhead, insurance, benefits is not out of line. From the viewpoint of the bid reviewer, the following would be the order of priority:

1.) Experience. Has the contractor done this work before? If so, the confidence level goes up and my risk goes down. No client wants to be teaching a contractor how to do the job.

2.) Scope of Work. Has the contractor demonstrated that he understands what to do and how to do it. The better the scope is defined the more likely I'd accept a Lump Sum over a T&M.

3.) Material lists and costs. An electrical box costs pretty much the same. Has the contractor laid out what he will need in a clear and understandable way.

4.) Labor rate. Good people that know what they are doing command a premium and are far more productive and in the end, cost effective.. That being said, there is a pretty wide variation on the acutal rate per hour depending on how hungry the contractor is and location.

It would be my position that a well composed bid that clearly lays out what the work is and how it will be done, will be far more important than your actual rabor rate, so long as it is within reason. In SE PA, a quality electrician will have a fully loaded labor rate of 75-100 $/hr., depending on the skill set needed and experience. A labor bid of $50/hr. or $150/hr. would likely raise questions. If you are doing a lump sum, you may not even have to supply a labor rate per hour.

There are a number of web sites that can give you prevaling rates by area of the country.

Gary
 
SkyHog said:
So, I have been invited to bid on a few jobs for low voltage wire work...problem is, I have NO idea what to bid. How the hell do you figure out what a decent rate is? I don't even really know what my time is worth, except to say that it is probably much less than the going rate for my time. lol.

Any idea how to find out where to start the bid rate at?
Click to expand...

If you're becoming a contractor, there are lots of things to keep in mind.

Think about forming a corporation, so if you screw up and get sued, you won't necessarily lose everything.

Make sure you're properly licensed to do work in whatever area the job is in. This may mean a state contractors license, local or county license, occupational license, sales tax permit, etc. depending on where you are.

Make sure you understand the applicable sections of the NEC, and the local requirements that the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) may have relative to your scope of work.

Any savvy owner or GC is going to require that you have general liability, excess or umbrella liability, automotive liability and workers compensation insurance coverage. Smarter owners and GCs will want your certificate of insurance to list them as additional insureds. So, get a good insurance broker that understands the construction industry that can help you with fun stuff like waivers of subrogation and the like.

Do you have lines of credit with suppliers?

Do you have a line of credit with a bank to finance your costs until you get paid by the owner or GC?

Smart owners or GCs are going to want lien releases with your payment, so make sure you understand your rights and obligations where the project is. In some areas, sworn statements are required, I don't know if those apply in your area.

(wage rate + fringe benefits)*1.3 will get you close on an hourly labor cost. You'll have to figure out multipliers for overhead and profit on top of your hourly labor rate.

You need to figure out what overhead is going to include, such as your office costs, vehicle, small equipment and consumables, etc. in order to come up with a percentage multiplier.

You need to keep track of your production so you can figure out unit prices to estimate with. As mentioned before, Means is OK, Walkers may be better for electrical work.

There are 10 bazillion people doing teledata work in any town since there are few barriers to entry, so unless you're extremely lucky, no one will want to do T&M or cost-plus work.

Welcome to the wonderful world of contracting...

Not to be harsh, but I've seen lots of guys that can physically install the work fail dismally because they are unprepared to deal with the business/administrative aspect of contracting, please make sure you're covered on that end, I wouldn't want to see you become one of those guys.


Trapper John
 
Richard said:
RE: $50/hr.

Start with how much you want to pay yourself per hour. Multiple that figure by 3. Given overhead, A/R, etc, etc, etc...you won't be far off the mark.

(You do want to stay in business, right?) It's not a BS question. Many noobs don't plan for the future of the company, most seem satisfied with nothing more than this week's earnings...even if those "earnings" come out of the pocket of A/P.
Click to expand...

if you really want a name for yourself fast, cut $5/hr off at first, then slowly increase and blame inflation for you increase to a normal rate. Then do a really good job so the people see you as a great contractor and recommend you to others.
 
smigaldi said:
That is pricing 101 and is sound advise from Ed. As you get more experience you will learn where you can cut a deal and make adjustments to your bid.
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Bidding 201 is to increase your rates sufficiently for the payola to the primes.
 
SkyHog said:
So, I have been invited to bid on a few jobs for low voltage wire work...problem is, I have NO idea what to bid. How the hell do you figure out what a decent rate is? I don't even really know what my time is worth, except to say that it is probably much less than the going rate for my time. lol.

Any idea how to find out where to start the bid rate at?
Click to expand...

Are you bidding or proposing?

Bidding means there is a concrete specification and layout complete with terms and conditions not unlike those spelled out above by several posters...Proposing means you come up with the plan and give a price for it.

I guess the question I am asking is this..are you invited to "bid" for your back or brain?

My price would be different based on which I thought was the case...

Food for thought: Your ideas are worth alot more than your back...:yes:
 
The advantage small businesses have is the service and responsiveness they provide. Not price. You cannot compete with larger businesses on price. You have gotten a lot of good advice on how to figure out a fair price for yourself.

Let me reinforce those who say do not underbid. Emphasize the quality of your service and your ability to focus on the job you are doing for your customer. In the long run, that is where your competitive edge is.
 
Have some great advice here already Nick.
Was just reading an article today about wiring and contractors and how one lost his shirt on a job because the price of the wire at the time of the bid turned out to be much less than when the work actually started. It is a good idea to have a 'clause" with the current economic climate that actual cost could change at the starting time of the job due to material costs increasing or decreasing (ya right!, but makes the customer feel better)

As Trapper said, make sure you roll into the equation the overhead costs, specifically your INSURANCE costs. Unless you are doing this work for a private home owner who isn't that bright, you are going to have to produce a certificate of insurance before you are allowed to even walk on the property. For my plant, we request at the time of the bid to keep "some" people from even bidding on it.

Mark B
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
re: underbidding to 'break into the trade': Unless the bid is for a contractor etc who might give you more bidness in future, or someone who is really going to be able to help by word of mouth I don't think this will work well.
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Agree. Low pricing often infers inferior work. And it makes it much, much harder to raise prices later for repeat clients.
 
SkyHog said:
Any idea how to find out where to start the bid rate at?
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Nick,

When I was doing it (6-10 years ago), here's what we did:

* Estimate for wiring: $2.50/foot if the walls were open, $4.50/foot if they were closed. Make sure you are overestimating the amount of cable needed.

* Billed: Time ($75/hr) and materials (with appropriate markup).

We had an account with West Penn Wire, that's where the bulk cable came from. Order too much, since (for example) if you have to make 3 300-foot runs (900 feet), 2 500-foot spools (1000 feet) won't do the trick. The extra pieces we ended up with, we used to make patch cables.

Graybar Electric is another place you'll want to establish an account. Lots of premise wiring stuff (raceway, boxes, connectors, you name it) and tools. I'm not sure what types of cable an alarm system uses, but if you're doing anything with phone/ethernet type stuff (RJ11/RJ45), you'll want at the very least a ratcheting crimp tool and a punchdown tool.

You'll want to learn what you're doing with the individual conductors, too. I still remember TIA-568B: White-orange, orange, white-green, blue, white-blue, green, white-brown, brown. Practice it - The connectors can't be re-used, but they're only about a buck apiece and it's better to screw 'em up at home than on the jobsite. OBTW, we also had some test equipment to verify such things - Specifically, a unit with four remote units that could be plugged in to the other end of a cable run and would identify (A/B/C/D) which remote unit was at the other end of the run that the main unit was plugged into as well as verify the cable and termination.

Oh, and remember - DO NOT run your low-voltage stuff parallel to power wiring, or you'll have a big fat 60Hz signal induced in your cables. We used to try for a separation of 8 feet with any parallel segment if at all possible.

Hope this helps, and good luck!
 
Also, don't forget to buy a toner (for identifying wire pairs remotely). Sorry if this is insultingly simple, but I have seen otherwise-brilliant network guys spend hours trying to work out which wire is which, where an old grizzled TelCo guy would have had it done in a heartbeat, with a "deedle-deedle" tone box.

For example:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/tone-probe.html

Also, life-saving device for running long runs above ceiling grid:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/fishtape.htm (check out "CableCaster")
 
SCCutler said:
Also, don't forget to buy a toner (for identifying wire pairs remotely). Sorry if this is insultingly simple, but I have seen otherwise-brilliant network guys spend hours trying to work out which wire is which, where an old grizzled TelCo guy would have had it done in a heartbeat, with a "deedle-deedle" tone box.

For example:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/tone-probe.html

Also, life-saving device for running long runs above ceiling grid:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/fishtape.htm (check out "CableCaster")
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Spike,

That's why the little wires are colored. ;) It's actually pretty difficult to use the tone generator/induction amp combo to determine an individual pair within a Cat5 cable, for example, because usually by the other end of the run the signal has bled over into other pairs. The trick is to touch the induction amp to the end of each pair, and hopefully one will be significantly louder than the others. Still, a tool you want to have. It'll also help you find power wiring so that you don't run parallel to it.

Fish tape is definitely a must-have if you're ever going to work behind closed walls. :yes:
 
SCCutler said:
Also, don't forget to buy a toner (for identifying wire pairs remotely). Sorry if this is insultingly simple, but I have seen otherwise-brilliant network guys spend hours trying to work out which wire is which, where an old grizzled TelCo guy would have had it done in a heartbeat, with a "deedle-deedle" tone box.

For example:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/tone-probe.html

Also, life-saving device for running long runs above ceiling grid:

http://www.datacomtools.com/catalog/fishtape.htm (check out "CableCaster")
Click to expand...
*Ahem* I still have my tools, incuding the kit that has 4 foot aluminum sections that screw together above the suspended ceilng. I broke that out to impress the sat TV installers pulling the coax in my basement, who weren't impressed.

I can tell you a patented way to fish a wall from up high right through to the basement....

(There was a gadget sold in those days you can duplicate at any hardware store.)
 
Mike:

I really should not have written "Wire Pairs," but I think you knew that. I was referring to isolating out the particular cable you are trying to punch down from among the 40 or 60 Cat 6 cables hanging down from the ceiling. Tone box still helps there.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Spike,

That's why the little wires are colored. ;) It's actually pretty difficult to use the tone generator/induction amp combo to determine an individual pair within a Cat5 cable, for example, because usually by the other end of the run the signal has bled over into other pairs. The trick is to touch the induction amp to the end of each pair, and hopefully one will be significantly louder than the others. Still, a tool you want to have. It'll also help you find power wiring so that you don't run parallel to it.

Fish tape is definitely a must-have if you're ever going to work behind closed walls. :yes:
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The wiring colors help only if there's one set of colors. At my previous job, there was at least eight ethernet cables going into the wall from the router. None were marked. In my office, there were four coming in and none were marked. Where was what goind and coming from? No clue!

If ya gotta match up an old wiring set with a new one, it won't be fun without a means of tracing.
 
KennyFlys said:
The wiring colors help only if there's one set of colors. At my previous job, there was at least eight ethernet cables going into the wall from the router. None were marked. In my office, there were four coming in and none were marked. Where was what goind and coming from? No clue!

If ya gotta match up an old wiring set with a new one, it won't be fun without a means of tracing.
Click to expand...

That's why I suggested the unit with the four remotes - No worries about tones being induced in other wires, and you can "find" four at a time. :yes:
 
KennyFlys said:
The wiring colors help only if there's one set of colors. At my previous job, there was at least eight ethernet cables going into the wall from the router. None were marked. In my office, there were four coming in and none were marked. Where was what goind and coming from? No clue!

If ya gotta match up an old wiring set with a new one, it won't be fun without a means of tracing.
Click to expand...
Kent was referring to the individual wires within a CAT5-6-whatever cable.
 
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