Beechcraft Skipper

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by taters, Nov 1, 2008.

  1. taters

    taters Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,712

    Display name:
    Taters
    Just curious if anyone here has any experience with the BE-77, I dont. I am exploring a possible addition to the training aircraft fleet at my operation . I have a bunch of time in other Beech products and I find the quality un-parralled in comparision to every other make I have flown. I am mainly concerned with the maintainance side of things in terms of how they hold up in the training environment, also are they slightly better on usefull load than say a 152? Any info appreciated

    Thanks

    Here is an example in case some are unfamiliar with the plane
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2008
  2. jason

    jason Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    4,685
    Location:
    Lincoln, Nebraska

    Display name:
    Jason W (FlyNE)
    Clay,

    Dan posted a review earlier this year...you can find it here.

    http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21972

    I have to admit that it would be nice to have a less expensive instrument platform. Plus it seems like a more comfortable ride than the 150 is for two people. The big question is how much rental would cost. It has to be attractive vs. the cherokee.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2008
  3. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,313
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE

    Display name:
    Jesse
    I've never flown a Skipper--I flew a Beech Sierra which was decent but got nowhere near the POH advertised cruised and liked lots of runway. But that appears to have nothing in common with the Sierra.

    It'd probably be an OK plane--personally I'm more interested in a retract but wouldn't want to pay a dollar more to fly it. :D
     
  4. d.grimm

    d.grimm Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Toledo, OH

    Display name:
    d.grimm
    We had two Skippers at the Flight School I ran. I thought they were great little airplanes. We rented them for the same price as a 152 and new students seemed to prefer the nice interior and look of quality.
    Couple maintenance items, tail tie down hit the ground frequently requiring rear fuselage repairs. (very effective elevator) Lead problems with the 0-235-L2c. I've heard of a new AD requiring replacement of the switch/circuit breakers. (expensive)
    Good trainers, not fast, (building hours, not miles) and use more runway than a 152.
    To this day if I had a choice I would rent a Skipper over a 152.
    Dave
     
  5. taters

    taters Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,712

    Display name:
    Taters
    Thats what I'm after..the quality..I love how you can see all of the "bonanza parts" in the panel. Thanks for the input to all...definately gonna try and take a look at one these sometime. They are a definately a "girl" airplane though in terms of looks
     
  6. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    31,266
    Not if you lean it properly.
     
  7. GigG601XL

    GigG601XL Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    El Dorado AR

    Display name:
    Gig Giacona
    And what new student EVER leaned properly?
     
  8. KennyFlys

    KennyFlys Guest

    Hopefully one who was taught properly and by the different means possible; mostly engine sound or EGT.
     
  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    22,628

    Display name:
    Tom-D

    Even with the best practices it has a bad record. no matter what aircraft it is in.
     
  10. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    31,266
    The ones I trained.
     
  11. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,507
    Location:
    Marietta, GA

    Display name:
    Drake the Outlaw
    The real downside to the Skipper is that it has the poorest performance of the "modern" 2 seat trainers.
     
  12. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    14,130
    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX

    Display name:
    3Green
    :thumbsup:
     
  13. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,496
    Location:
    Other side of the world

    Display name:
    Rotor&Wing
    Another downside of the Skipper is the price of parts which is typical Beech. Very pricey to maintain.
     
  14. ApacheBob

    ApacheBob Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,031
    Location:
    Chicago

    Display name:
    ApacheBob
    I enjoyed flying the Skipper. It was one of the club planes at Aurora about 6 years ago. If you are looking for one, the owner of the plane may have a line on one. PM me and I will give you his phone number.:blueplane:
    ApacheBob
     
  15. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    15,295
    Location:
    Montgomery County PA

    Display name:
    Adam Zucker
    AdamB on this board flies a skipper in his club. There is a skipper for sale at my filed. The guy up graded to a Baron. ( Quite and upgrade). I think it is way over priced but it is a very clean and nice looking plane and IIRC its well equipped.
     
  16. AdamB

    AdamB Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    KLWM

    Display name:
    AdamB
    Yeah we have 2 in our club. http://www.newenglandflyingclub.com/aircraft.html
    They are a decent trainer, very solid platform, and pretty spacious inside all things considered.
    Finding parts and the cost of parts can sometimes be an issue as mentioned above but our maintenance guy does a great job. The guys at the Beech Aero Club have been very helpful in that regard.
     
  17. dmccormack

    dmccormack Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    Lancaster County, Pennsylvania

    Display name:
    Dan Mc
    Yeah, but compared to Cessna 150/152 series, what difference is 4-5 knots?

    Skipper benefits:
    1. Spacious interior
    2. Beech Build
    3. "Real Airplane" panel layout
    4. Good Control harmony
    5. Requires rudder
    6. Spinnable
    7. Predictable and benign slow flight and stall behavior
    Skipper Disadvantages
    • Slow
    • Very Slow
    • Really, really slow
    • Anemic takeoff performance
     
  18. vontresc

    vontresc En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,287
    Location:
    Madison

    Display name:
    vonSegelGoober
    Wow that Slow factor must be the common thing likning the Low-end Beech trainers. I have a decent block of time in a Sundowner (aka Slowdowner), and while it was spacious, built like a tank, and a real nice airplane nothing really happened very fast in it.
     
  19. RMCN172RG

    RMCN172RG Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    Port Huron, MI

    Display name:
    Ray
    That's good for a trainer, isn't it?
     
  20. AdamB

    AdamB Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    KLWM

    Display name:
    AdamB
    Pete: I was in the Sundowner the one night a couple months ago joking with the tower controller about how some call me a slowdowner. He got a kick out of it. :D
     
  21. Tristar

    Tristar Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,833
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE

    Display name:
    Tristar
    Clay,

    I'm not the first to tell you this but I think you're missing a huge opportunity. Lincoln, as you know, has few training airplanes to begin with which is sad for the size of the city. The guys upstairs have little planned for anything past instrument. Although I know that you're only part of an operation, I strongly feel that you should look into a complex airplane. Yes, it's possible the maintenance is a little higher but think of the opportunities that you'll be able to give to both your clients, CFI's and company alike. It would be possible to teach all the way through ATP when, currently, Instrument is the furthest anyone can go. Not to mention, the aircraft are faster and more appealing.

    The Skipper could be a great addition to the private fleet but I also know you strongly need something bigger than the 150 for special clients if you don't plan to use the Cherokee.

    That is my observation and I've heard the same thoughts from some locals.


    Is the Beech Skipper in any relation to the Tomahawk?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  22. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    19,387
    Location:
    Paola, KS

    Display name:
    iFlyTwins
    But that's not all! Act now and you'll receive...

    I'd argue that for initial training, the first three disadvantages are non-issues. Learning how to handle a faster plane later is not a big deal, the whole point of primary training is to get the basics down. For that, speed is not really an issue. Anemic takeoff performance might teach students the importance of checking that POH for what the plane's takeoff performance is prior to takeoff. That's not a bad thing, either.

    The advantages all make sense for a primary trainer. Again, the student can learn slow flight and stalls that are more difficult once they're ready to upgrade to a more difficult aircraft.

    But, I have zero experience with a Beech anything, and tend to be partial to Pipers and Mooneys.
     
  23. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,313
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE

    Display name:
    Jesse
    Seriously Ted--change your name--you're busting the site.
     
  24. dmccormack

    dmccormack Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    Lancaster County, Pennsylvania

    Display name:
    Dan Mc
    Oh absolutely! I remember the first time thinking -- "Holy cow there's plenty of time to arrange a landing in this thing!" It all happens so slowly it's as if each event is completely discrete.

    But...

    The climbout to safe altitude and place to practice took forever, eating into some of the lesson time. That's where a bit more power would come in handy.


    ..And once you fly a Beech, you'll wonder why you wasted so much time in lesser airplanes....

    ;)
     
    Glen R likes this.
  25. RMCN172RG

    RMCN172RG Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    Port Huron, MI

    Display name:
    Ray
    That remark is just Plane racist:rolleyes2:
     
  26. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Eastern Washington

    Display name:
    Skywag
    No relation what-so-ever, other than they were designed at the same time and corporate espionage was going on.
     
  27. dmccormack

    dmccormack Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    Lancaster County, Pennsylvania

    Display name:
    Dan Mc
    Is it arrogance if it's true?

    B)
     
  28. AdamB

    AdamB Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    505
    Location:
    KLWM

    Display name:
    AdamB
    I know what you mean. In the summer I've had several short trips (30-50nm) where I was never able to get up to the VFR cruising altitude I had intended prior to having to decend and land.
     
  29. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,507
    Location:
    Marietta, GA

    Display name:
    Drake the Outlaw
    I've never seen the POH, but isn't the useful load worse on the Skipper than on most PA-38's or C-152's?
     
  30. stingray

    stingray Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Grantsburg WI

    Display name:
    Daniel Michaels
    I know where you can get a Sport III for $20,000.00 nice plane. I do not know much about Beechcraft I think it is a little bigger.

    Dan
     
  31. flyersfan31

    flyersfan31 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    14,250

    Display name:
    Freiburgfan31

    Bwaaaahahahahahahaha --- the guy wants $40k for it. $40k?!!!! He's smoking something. Crack maybe. No Skipper is worth more'n $25k, max.

    Nice looking planes. Solid little trainer. Built like a brick ****house, compared to a 152. Not worth $0.01 over $25k on a really good day.
     
  32. flyersfan31

    flyersfan31 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    14,250

    Display name:
    Freiburgfan31
    In defense of "slow" Beech trainers, they really aren't all that slow. I posted pix of my old Sundowner on the red board showing 125ktas without massive exertion. I cruised at 115ktas, 9gph, about 63%pwr IIRC. Certainly competitive with the 172. A bit slower than the Archer, but no scooching your fanny over the pax seat to get into the drivers seat.

    Don't bad mouth 'em if you haven't flown 'em.
     
  33. OH Flier

    OH Flier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    170

    Display name:
    G^2
    Does the Beechcraft have time limited wings similar to the Piper Tomahawk?
     
  34. taters

    taters Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,712

    Display name:
    Taters
    Apparently no
     
  35. Anthony

    Anthony Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,419

    Display name:
    Anthony

    There fixed it for ya.


    :devil: :D
     
  36. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,773
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    Anthony- you forgot to mention the down draft helping him :)
     
  37. flyersfan31

    flyersfan31 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    14,250

    Display name:
    Freiburgfan31

    Tiger owners. Harumph.:incazzato:



    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  38. dmccormack

    dmccormack Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    Lancaster County, Pennsylvania

    Display name:
    Dan Mc
    Don't know about Sundowners, etc.

    The Skipper maxed at 90 KIAS, full throttle, lightly loaded.
     
  39. nvsssnake

    nvsssnake Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    In the West

    Display name:
    nvsssnake

    I have time in the Skipper and Sport and Sundowner. Like I told my friends when I was flight instructing if you never flown a Skipper then don’t say it’s a Tomahawk. I also flew with a student that had his on Tomahawk and I was always think how much better the Skipper cabin was and how it handled better. When building the Skipper Beech fix the all the bad, Piper got wavers for the Tomahawk. Beech would build ¾ of a Skipper a day; Piper would turn out 12 Tomahawks a day. The Skipper didn’t really spin it was more o a spiral and we all know how bad the Tomahawk would spin.

    The Sport and Sundowner may be slow but they are cheap to own. I’m working on some wheel faring for them.

    If you look at the thickness of the wing skin and spar they are built like a truck. I had 2 friends that crashed on a hill in their Musketeer and they told me afterward that if they would have been in a Cessna they would have died. The wing spar of the Beech kept them from sliding down the hill side after hitting a tree, the Cessna wing would have sheared off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010
  40. Pi1otguy

    Pi1otguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA

    Display name:
    Fox McCloud
    Got my PP in a Skipper. With a light head wind freeway traffic will actually pass you.

    Other advantages as trainer:

    • Relatively cheap cost (guessing based on FBO wet rates)
    • Punishes sloppy footwork during stall practice (huge, huge wing drop)
    • IIRC Vfe is near or just above the Skipper's top speed.
    • Va is nearly unattainable without some serious effort
    Disadvantages as trainer:

    • Vfe & Va are non issue 95% of the time. Some adjustment needed when transitioning to "bigger" planes like a 172.
    • Can not climb through down drafts common to parts of SoCal and the SW.
    • Can not climb worth anything with flaps. (my first FBO lost one that way.)
    • Occasional low voltage issues with strobes, nav, & landing light on during final.
    It's probably just me, but x-wind landings in that thing is 3rd scariest thing I've done in aviation.