Banned from Beechtalk for no good reason

Love how this tool, creates negative attention for himself to get noticed then wants to talk rational and buddy-buddy....

I also watched this joker on Mooneyspace....good for beachtalk! Mooney crew should have given him the boot too.

Skynewbie: your a idiot, stop wasting the time of these good people on this forum would you....

Now someone get us back to LOP or champion vs. tempest :)
 
Aaronk25 said:
Love how this tool, creates negative attention for himself to get noticed then wants to talk rational and buddy-buddy....

I also watched this joker on Mooneyspace....good for beachtalk! Mooney crew should have given him the boot too.

Skynewbie: your a idiot, stop wasting the time of these good people on this forum would you....

Now someone get us back to LOP or champion vs. tempest :)
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What? He was on BeachTalk, too? So he IS trying boating after all?! :yikes: :D
 
I got a nice boat for sale. It's even really fast with 900hp hanging off the back. I will give you a good deal on it with no broker involved. :yes:
 

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In shopping for my Navion I made inquiries to about a dozen or so planes and actually looked at three. There were certainly those that were way overpriced even without brokers being involved. The one that had a broker was reasonably priced and the broker made the process easier for me as well as I had some terms that I wanted based on my initial inspection (carb overhaul, etc...).
 
flyingron said:
I don't understand the anti-broker hostility. Brokers do not "jack up the price" to the buyer, they "jack down" the proceeds remitted to the seller. The market determines the sales price, it's up to the seller to determine if he wants to deal with it himself or pay the broker to handle it.

I bought my Navion through a broker (Wisconsin Aviation) and have no regrets. Amusingly one day at Oshkosh I was standing at a friend's Navion waiting for him to return and this little old man walks up to me...
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I bought my mooney through a broker, too. I thought the price was fair, so I don't know or care what the broker charged. Simple process. He handled all the paperwork. It turned out to be a fairly local sale, so all 3 of us were there. I saw the broker give the seller the check, and the seller gave him a commission check.
 
Like anything else, I think you have to investigate brokers by reputation. Some are honest respectable brokers, and some are scum. Can't lump them all in the same boat.
 
asgcpa said:
Like anything else, I think you have to investigate brokers by reputation. Some are honest respectable brokers, and some are scum. Can't lump them all in the same boat.
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To wit I cite: "Baron Thomas"
 
asgcpa said:
Like anything else, I think you have to investigate brokers by reputation. Some are honest respectable brokers, and some are scum. Can't lump them all in the same boat.
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Truer words have not been spoken. Most brokers are not scum, most brokers are part time brokers, mechanics, FBO owners, pilots,... who add brokering to their overall aviation industry repertories to add up to a reasonable living providing service in the aviation industry. The good thing about going through a broker is you have someone who can help you negotiate down an overpriced plane from an unrealistic owner. Brokers know what a plane is worth and will try to get the owner to take a realistic offer in order to get a deal done. In return an owner doesn't have to waste his time with bottom feeders, low ballers, and tire kickers. That is why an owner pays a broker, to get the deal done with the minum waste of their time.
 
Aaronk25 said:
Love how this tool, creates negative attention for himself to get noticed then wants to talk rational and buddy-buddy....

I also watched this joker on Mooneyspace....good for beachtalk! Mooney crew should have given him the boot too.

Skynewbie: your a you're an idiot, stop wasting the time of these good people on this forum would you....

Now someone get us back to LOP or champion vs. tempest :)
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FTFY. :D
 
I used a broker for the Arrow and he passed on a lot of aircraft I might have jumped on without reservation. He knew the level of aircraft he wanted to find for me and got very excited when we found the one I originally purchased.

I had given him a max amount and this aircraft ws over that amount. He was a bit frustrated when I reminded him that the price was above my contracted amount. He did more homework and spoke with the owners broker and got the price down to below my max.

It has been a good aircraft. I worked with this guy via phone and e-mail and enjoyed working with him so much that I flew the Arrow up to Columbus so he could see it. He spent about two hours going over everything with me to watch for and taught me a lot about the Arrow that I didn't know.

Overall a good experience for me.
 
New PoA member. Just popped in to say it's sad that it ended up this way for Ben on BT, with bridges burned completely to the ground, there were certainly lots of people who were trying to assist him.

While nobody wants to pay too much for a plane, I fear that excessive bargain hunting can end up with the buyer getting a real POS airplane, especially if you're a first time buyer, and especially if you aren't yourself an A&P.

best

Tim
 
urbanti said:
New PoA member. Just popped in to say it's sad that it ended up this way for Ben on BT, with bridges burned completely to the ground, there were certainly lots of people who were trying to assist him.

While nobody wants to pay too much for a plane, I fear that excessive bargain hunting can end up with the buyer getting a real POS airplane, especially if you're a first time buyer, and especially if you aren't yourself an A&P.

best

Tim
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I was in that position as well. Had an agreement to buy a Deb subject to review of the logs. You can imagine what happened. Anyway, I lucked out and was offered to be a "named pilot" on the insurance for a friend's Cirrus SR20. I can say that in my experience, searching for a plane at the right price with right specs is a PITA, broker or not.
 
Tex_Mike said:
So what is a typical brokerage fee?
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I discussed this VIA the Internet with a well know broker on BT with good rapport. I believe that for someone, not scorched earth Bargain Hunting, a Broker is an excellent investment. I also believe the price is a great value and can save you Thousands over the cost of the broker at purchase and in the long run of ownership.

The cost.... $6K-ish is what I was quoted. The problem I encountered with helpful people and at least one Broker Type is that often they want you to buy the plane they recommend. The guy pushed Vikings on me like they were the greatest most forgotten jewel on the Market.

People made a few snide remarks as I searched and asked questions about planes. That goes with the territory. Just read the comment and give it all the thought it deserves. :)

Actually, I like Ben. I don't understand why you can't post your feelings without getting attacked or why one has to buy a plane just because he is shopping for one?
 
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...and now for a word not from our sponsors.

I've had nothing but bad luck with brokers. The one honest and capable guy brokering a plane was in Abiline TX. They sell what the have to sell on commission. There's usually little or no involvement or history on a particular plane, they have no interest in the satisfaction of the client outside of getting paid, and the contracts they write are a nightmare. If you buy a plane through a broker, once the deal is signed, if it explodes on take off, it's like the broker didn't know the plane, you, the seller, the airport, or had no involvement at all except to skim the fee. Bad mojo for this buyer. I've bought one and only one plane through a broker, and I got a heck of a trade on the deal, so I went with it(seller had already traded up and took my low-ball).
 
etemplet said:
The cost.... $6K-ish is what I was quoted. The problem I encountered with helpful people and at least one Broker Type is that often they want you to buy the plane they recommend.
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6K to represent the buyer?? That's a bit rich, some charge an hourly rate, some a flat fee. If you know what you want, then hourly will work out better. If you're like the OP, definitely flat fee.
 
urbanti said:
While nobody wants to pay too much for a plane, I fear that excessive bargain hunting can end up with the buyer getting a real POS airplane,
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Excessive haggling and back and forth is never good. I had two deals with brokers that went this way and both fell through. Ultimately both closed with later buyers for prices *less* then what I was offering. It's the emotional element that causes sellers/brokers to dig in. I've since moved on to time and patience as my new method of bargain hunting. I let the seller know I am funded and give proof of that. I lay out the deal in writing, and what the steps are and when it will close if each side completes their steps. Then I make an offer. It they accept it or we are close it might close. If not, I thank them and ask them to get back to me if anything changes. That is exactly what happened with my last plane. The seller had just listed, but after 2-3 weeks of tire kickers decided to get serious.

Now.. don't think for a moment my offers are what anyone here would consider retail... they are wholesale. My local FBO owner calls me a predatory buyer. But I'm not a tire kicker and I come to the table funded and (mostly) knowing what I want. That's worked good for me for the planes I have bought (3).



docmirror said:
I've had nothing but bad luck with brokers. The one honest and capable guy brokering a plane was in Abiline TX. They sell what the have to sell on commission. There's usually little or no involvement or history on a particular plane, they have no interest in the satisfaction of the client outside of getting paid, and the contracts they write are a nightmare. If you buy a plane through a broker, once the deal is signed, if it explodes on take off, it's like the broker didn't know the plane, you, the seller, the airport, or had no involvement at all except to skim the fee. Bad mojo for this buyer.
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I had a good experience with my first broker, who was a buyer's broker... but of course he worked for me.

Seller's brokers, while I find the starting prices much more realistic it's actually getting to the point of closing the deal I've had problems with. You are 110% right about the worthless contracts they write... I had one where the broker wouldn't even warranty it was his plane to sell... that was on me. Now you get alot of people saying do the FAA title search... but what if it turns up a 30 year old bogus lien from a bank three times renamed and now based in Taiwan? I've already invested my time and money to get to that point. Dude... that's YOUR problem... not mine. But that's exactly what happened to me and it took the first hand knowledge of my seller and his time to run it down. Some of these guys know there are lien issues (which was the case with this broker) they don't disclose them and then hope you are emotionally vested to overlook it.

Had another one where me and the seller had agreed on the price and my terms, but he was less then pleased I went around him (even though he offered for me to call the seller myself and I first confirmed he had a contract with the seller). Nobody was trying to cut him out... we both just wanted to get the deal done (and I) was tired of his jerking around trying to work me like I was a fresh fish buyer. The deal fell apart when the broker refused to let me run (all) the funds through an escrow instead of making a $5000 deposit directly to him. This btw taking weeks to get to and weeks after I told him, no disrespect, but I don't make deposits to buyers or brokers unless they are in an escrow with clear terms.

I'll still deal with brokers but it's my way or the highway. Maybe if the market recovers I won't have this luxury, but there are plenty of sellers out there and a few do want to sell their airplanes and can appreciate the fact there is value in a buyer who is funded and ready to move.
 
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teejayevans said:
6K to represent the buyer?? That's a bit rich, some charge an hourly rate, some a flat fee. If you know what you want, then hourly will work out better. If you're like the OP, definitely flat fee.
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That is high for a buyer's agent. I have never charged more than $4K and that included the pre-purchase inspection and a flight check out in the aircraft. I charge by the hour, after the initial consultation which is to discuss the buyer's goals and to see if I can help and whether it makes sense for me to be involved.

A buyer's agent does often make sense for the first time buyer. There is so much to know in order to match the plane to the needs, separate the wheat from the chaff on the ads, and to winnow the market down to candidates that are worth spending time on.
 
For noob, I would settle on my mission, then hire an A&P by the hour for the work needed. $75/hour x 20 hours is $1500, and pretty much any entry level plane can be gone over quite well in less than 20 hours by a competent A&P. Of course, finding the right A&P is also a challenge.
 
I've bought a number of planes and have never had a problem including going through a broker. To me it is irrelevant whether a broker is involved or not. I do my research so I know what price is fair so I will offer a little lower than that and it usually works out for me after a little back and forth. As someone has said the broker is working for the seller and is being paid by the seller not by me.

The other advice I would have is relevant for buying any high dollar item not just planes:
1. Make sure you can afford it and have the funds ready to go before you start looking. Make sure the seller knows you're a serious buyer. If you come across as not being serious, you're not going to get your offer taken seriously.
2. Don't be cheap, do your due diligence and make sure there is nothing bad lurking. For a plane the only way to REALLY know what you're getting in to is to do an annual as part of the inspection. This helps both parties understand what a fair price is.
3. Be nice! Even if you're negotiating hard there is no need to be abrasive or difficult/confrontational. Nobody wants to work with someone like that because if they need to go lower they can always find someone else to give the steal of a deal to.
 
docmirror said:
For noob, I would settle on my mission, then hire an A&P by the hour for the work needed. $75/hour x 20 hours is $1500, and pretty much any entry level plane can be gone over quite well in less than 20 hours by a competent A&P. Of course, finding the right A&P is also a challenge.
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You'll have to settle on the plane as well before hiring an A&P, if the plane is NY and your A&P is in LA, you'll be spending a $1500 just on travel costs...
For noob, go with a BB, they'll know which brokers have bad reps and steer you clear before wasting time and money. They can also help with finding an A&P to do prebuy, ferrying the plane if required, etc
 
teejayevans said:
You'll have to settle on the plane as well before hiring an A&P, if the plane is NY and your A&P is in LA, you'll be spending a $1500 just on travel costs...
For noob, go with a BB, they'll know which brokers have bad reps and steer you clear before wasting time and money. They can also help with finding an A&P to do prebuy, ferrying the plane if required, etc
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IMX, you have to know what you want and you have to know the weaknesses and strengths of the aircraft before going to the A&P. A&P's typical don't know how to do a pre-purchase inspection and have never bought a plane. Left to their own devices, they will inspect it for minimal airworthiness, as they have always done for annual and 100 hour inspections. Unless they are pilots and have been a buyer themselves, it doesn't occur to them to evaluation the probable maintenance costs going forward. Most can't or won't perform a test flight.

Ideally, you find someone who is more management level in their thinking who can test fly the aircraft, check the avionics, and do the pre-purchase inspection. Even at the cost of travel, unless you are buying a simple inexpensive aircraft, the cost will likely pay off in the reduced price you pay as rarely does a knowledgeable inspector not find anything that affects the value of the aircraft.
 
etemplet said:
a Broker is an excellent investment. I also believe the price is a great value and can save you Thousands over the cost of the broker at purchase and in the long run of ownership.

The cost.... $6K-ish is what I was quoted.
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On my $23,000 Cherokee 180 I bought in 2003 all told it was around $2000 and that included a prebuy, paperwork and a flight to the seller's airport in the broker's 310. The cashiers check was also in my pocket on the way and the 310 followed me back in my new plane.

We set some loose parameters... actually the plane I had wanted was Cessna 177... but a good deal came up on this 180 and the broker was good enough to be able to mostly evaluate things on the phone and talked me into giving it a serious look. Ugly plane... terrible paint and a higher time engine (1700smoh)... but mechanically solid. Broker knew my mission but more importantly knew my tastes might change as I grew which they did. 2.5 years later I sold the plane with 1950 hours on the engine for $27,000 with no major upgrades or expenses (worst expense was some exhaust work).

The numbers I'm hearing from my buyers broker are around 6% so if that was a $100K plane... $6K sounds right but I'd try and talk him down a bit here.
 
teejayevans said:
You'll have to settle on the plane as well before hiring an A&P, if the plane is NY and your A&P is in LA, you'll be spending a $1500 just on travel costs...
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Why would you buy a commodity plane on the other coast ? Did CA/NV run out of airplanes ?

$1500 is poket change compared with the cost of getting a quick once-over by a disinterested unaccountable shop at the sellers location. Once you get home, your IA is going to find at least three expensive things you'll have to replace for him to sign off the annual. Better have the seller pay for them.
I have met a mechanic from the netherlands sent to inspect a newish Maule on amphibs. Was well worth it for the buyer as the mechanic discovered required airworthiness work well in excess of his travel cost.
 
weilke said:
Why would you buy a commodity plane on the other coast ? Did CA/NV run out of airplanes ?

$1500 is poket change compared with the cost of getting a quick once-over by a disinterested unaccountable shop at the sellers location. Once you get home, your IA is going to find at least three expensive things you'll have to replace for him to sign off the annual. Better have the seller pay for them.
I have met a mechanic from the netherlands sent to inspect a newish Maule on amphibs. Was well worth it for the buyer as the mechanic discovered required airworthiness work well in excess of his travel cost.
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Sometimes the best value in a pre-purchase inspection is the one you walk away from. I like to avoid clients having to pay my travel costs by looking at pictures and logs before spending travel money, unless of course the plane is local.
 
Kristin said:
Sometimes the best value in a pre-purchase inspection is the one you walk away from. I like to avoid clients having to pay my travel costs by looking at pictures and logs before spending travel money, unless of course the plane is local.
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In the age of pdf files, digital cameras with timestamps and the internet tubes, the big suprises should be few and far in between.
 
I've bought and sold through brokers, and I have bought and sold to and from owners, it comes down to the right airplane at the right price. If a broker has it, fine, it's for sale by owner, fine. Brokers do tend to know the market better than many airplane buyers or sellers, not always, but it pays to find someone that markets what you are buying or selling. I wouldn't call Atlanta Jet to sell my 1977 182, but I might call them about selling my Conquest. :D
Airplane and boat brokers are like real estate sales people, good ones, bad ones and great ones. Find the guy or gal that is turning inventory, that's active in the market, not just a local guy with an email and a fax machine. I have never hired a buyer's broker, but I do see the benefits, especially for a first time buyer or somebody moving up to an unfamiliar aircraft. ;)
I do enjoy the buying process, the selling side not so much. :rolleyes:
 
I have a good friend who actually is an aircraft broker and will remain nameless and he's told me stories on the shenanigans many engage in. I don't have an issue paying fair value but when marked up price exceeds rational thought and borders on greed then I pass. The problem I see is most brokers fail to have that reality check aka coming to Jesus talk with the aircraft seller early on in the process which aggravates the situation for all parties involved. But what do I know? You guys call me a low time no nothing pilot but it's what I'm seeing out there. Aircraft prices are dropping not rising. Economy sucks right now, deal with it.
 
skynewbie said:
I have a good friend who actually is an aircraft broker and will remain nameless and he's told me stories on the shenanigans many engage in. I don't have an issue paying fair value but when marked up price exceeds rational thought and borders on greed then I pass. The problem I see is most brokers fail to have that reality check aka coming to Jesus talk with the aircraft seller early on in the process which aggravates the situation for all parties involved. But what do I know? You guys call me a low time no nothing pilot but it's what I'm seeing out there. Aircraft prices are dropping not rising. Economy sucks right now, deal with it.
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In that case it should be easy to buy. What are you waiting for?
 
skynewbie said:
I have a good friend who actually is an aircraft broker and will remain nameless and he's told me stories on the shenanigans many engage in. I don't have an issue paying fair value but when marked up price exceeds rational thought and borders on greed then I pass. The problem I see is most brokers fail to have that reality check aka coming to Jesus talk with the aircraft seller early on in the process which aggravates the situation for all parties involved. But what do I know? You guys call me a low time no nothing pilot but it's what I'm seeing out there. Aircraft prices are dropping not rising. Economy sucks right now, deal with it.
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The broker may mark up the listing price, he doesnt set the final transaction price, the buyer does by putting his signature on the contract. The fact that the brokers you were ragging on on BT tend to move the planes they represent suggests that their final transaction prices are in line with the market.

Your last deal fell through because you didn't have the cash to make up the difference between what RRSB was willing to loan on the plane and the price you had agreed upon with the seller, not some nefarious interference by a broker.
 
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Most brokers end up posting a listing price lower than what the seller walked in looking for.
 
skynewbie said:
Aircraft prices are dropping not rising. Economy sucks right now, deal with it.
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If your economy sucks, I suggest a new line of work. Hopefully you're not in the bottom-feeding fast service restaurant business for example. But my company is hiring, (I'm desperate for a Programmer/Analyst in Dublin, OH) and while growth overall is slow, that's part of our new reality.

Farmers are getting rich, bankers are getting richer, IT people get paid handsomely and are in huge demand. Fracking is big too. :dunno:

Just sayin.
 
teejayevans said:
6K to represent the buyer?? That's a bit rich, some charge an hourly rate, some a flat fee. If you know what you want, then hourly will work out better. If you're like the OP, definitely flat fee.
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How about Real Estate commissions? 6% standard and price fixed by agreement with most RE Brokers.

I used a broker when I bought my plane, he was quite a character by the name of Chuck Badger.
 
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