Balloon, 6 skydivers, TS

I know I am dumber then a fence post,, but.... Didn't the balloon pilot see the thunderstorm coming as he inflated his balloon..:dunno::dunno:
 
I would have thought balloons to be safer, but apparently they are not:

https://www.facworld.com/FACworld.nsf/doc/Hotairballoon

Based on the above, it might appear that balloons are a much safer recreational pursuit than fixed wing aircraft. An annual average of 20 balloon accidents compared to almost 1,900 general aviation aircraft accidents makes it difficult to reach another conclusion. Difficult, that is, until one compares usage. Not surprisingly, balloons are used far less than general aircraft. From 1996 to 1997 the NTSB reports the following:

General Aviation
Year # of Accidents # of Fatalities Flight Hours Accidents per 100,000 Hours
1997 1,851 641 25,464,000 7.27
1996 1,909 632 24,881,000 7.67
Total 3,760 1,273 50,345,000 7.47

Balloons
Year # of Accidents # of Fatalities Flight Hours Accidents per 100,000 Hours
1997 17 2 48,700 34.90
1996 22 2 68,000 32.37
Total 39 4 116,700 33.62

Although the number of balloon accidents is much lower, the rate per flight hour is over four times that for general aviation aircraft. Granted, this may not be indicative of an inherent frequency problem with balloon accidents, but it does help put into perspective the low annual number of incidents relative to other aircraft. Balloons are certainly not as trouble free as they appear.
 
N801BH said:
I know I am dumber then a fence post,, but.... Didn't the balloon pilot see the thunderstorm coming as he inflated his balloon..:dunno::dunno:
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Same as all of histories VFR into IMC accidents?
 
Having been in the sport of hot-air ballooning for several years now, this strikes a chord with me. The thing that REALLY resonates with me was the statement by the sky-diver that "He saved our lives" by telling them to jump, presumably to save them from the inevitable.

No, you dumb ****, he didn't save your lives - he risked all of your lives by launching into adverse weather conditions in the first place to get one more lift before the end of the day. No real honest-to-God balloon pilot would do that.

In my book, inflating a ballon, launching a balloon, or continuing flight in a balloon with thunderstorm activity anywhere nearby automatically makes you a Darwin candidate. This guy was bone-head stupid at an absolute minimum, criminally negligent at worst, and is most likely dead as a result. The only positive out of this story is that 6 of the 7 people riding a balloon into a thunderstorm were smart enough to wear a parachute.
 
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News just reported that a CAP aircrew spotted the wreckage. Subsequent news reports have now credited Georgia State Patrol with the find.
 
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FlySince9 said:
You mean those psychotic wanna-bes, being portrayed in that other thread, pulled it off?

How about that :D
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Yup - it only took 'em 3 days to find something as big as a hot-air balloon! Good job CAP! :yikes:

Yeah, yeah, I know - it can be exceedingly difficult to spot any aircraft depending on the terrain, weather etc, and we don't know how long it was before the search got organized. Let's just say I hope I never have to depend on CAP to find me.
 
This is the number one fear of mine in my day to day flying. Getting sucked into a thunderstorm is a 100% bad idea in any LTA aircraft.
 
Volunteer organizations are not always swift in their reaction time. When I was a kid, the Custer County volunteer fired department saved more foundations than any other department in western OK.
airguy said:
Yup - it only took 'em 3 days to find something as big as a hot-air balloon! Good job CAP! :yikes:

Yeah, yeah, I know - it can be exceedingly difficult to spot any aircraft depending on the terrain, weather etc, and we don't know how long it was before the search got organized. Let's just say I hope I never have to depend on CAP to find me.
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Can't say the guy was wreckless as it was apparently clear prior to launch and the TS was a Pop Up. That said I don't understand how he was a hero other than telling the jumpers to jump. Media also reports that he wanted to go above the storm to ride it out, that seems kind of nuts as CBs can go pretty damn high into the flight levels. I don't know why he didn't decide to decend land and get wet but I know nothing at all about ballooning. Reports indicate that the balloon collapsed at FL180 and fell to earth. Hopefully he was unconcious.
 
For the balloon guys /gals out there I am curious.

Obviously when 6 people jumped out ,the gondola got real light, real quick..

1- one of the stories in the media says he aimed the balloon over an open field... I would assume since he was so close to the thunderstorm, the outflow of wind pushed him there and he had little if any input on where it drifted:dunno:

2- when the 6 people bailed doesn't a balloon have some form of dump panel on it so you can release the hot air in a controlled manner and decend :dunno:

Inquiring minds and all.......

Ben.
 
AdamZ said:
Can't say the guy was wreckless as it was apparently clear prior to launch and the TS was a Pop Up. That said I don't understand how he was a hero other than telling the jumpers to jump. Media also reports that he wanted to go above the storm to ride it out, that seems kind of nuts as CBs can go pretty damn high into the flight levels. I don't know why he didn't decide to decend land and get wet but I know nothing at all about ballooning. Reports indicate that the balloon collapsed at FL180 and fell to earth. Hopefully he was unconcious.
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In the link that Dave posted:
An updraft took Ristaino into the clouds, 17,000 or 18,000 feet up, he told
his ground crew via walkie-talkie. Then the storm apparently collapsed
the balloon and twisted it into a streamer. In his last transmission, he
reported that he was at 2,000 feet and saw trees beneath him, according
to the sheriff.
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What a wild ride. I too would be interested to get the answers to the questions that Ben asked. :dunno:
 
N801BH said:
For the balloon guys /gals out there I am curious.

Obviously when 6 people jumped out ,the gondola got real light, real quick..

1- one of the stories in the media says he aimed the balloon over an open field... I would assume since he was so close to the thunderstorm, the outflow of wind pushed him there and he had little if any input on where it drifted:dunno:

2- when the 6 people bailed doesn't a balloon have some form of dump panel on it so you can release the hot air in a controlled manner and decend :dunno:

Inquiring minds and all.......

Ben.
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1 - Correct, you're along for the ride in whatever wind current surrounds you. You can control altitude by climbing or descending, and get into a different wind current at a different altitude, but the wind is going to take you with it wherever it goes.
2 - Correct - when those skydivers went over the side he would have had a whole boatload of excess lift to deal with in a hurry. There is a parachute top inside the top of the balloon that's held in place upward against the opening by the hot air inside and controlled by a "redline" cord at the pilots level, he can pull on that line to partially or fully displace the parachute top downward and let out staggering amounts of hot air in a hurry. Once the right amount of air has been released you simply release the redline and the top will reseat itself upward against the balloon fabric again, bouyed there by the rising hot air. If you pull it long enough and let out too much hot air (like nearly all of it) then the top will not reseat itself and the balloon will deflate. This is how you lay the balloon down on the ground after flight, you never want to dump that much heat in flight. While descending, you want to keep the balloon fully inflated, even if the air is relatively cool (relatively cool may be 120-150 degrees in this case, versus 200-220), because if you allow the ballon to deflate it will pinch off at the bottom first, preventing you from injecting more heat via the burner at the bottom when it comes time to arrest your descent near the ground.

Hot air balloons can do what's known as a "terminal descent", which is basically falling at terminal velocity just like a skydiver, by allowing the air in the envelope to cool until the envelope starts to get "soft", and then burning JUST enough to keep it fully inflated. The pilot would almost certainly have been trying to do this to descend out of the building thunderstorm. The air drag of the balloon will then limit the rate at which you go down, and with it fully inflated you can easily add more heat to stop the descent. If you don't keep enough heat in it during a terminal descent, the air velocity upward from the descent can squeeze the bottom down on you preventing adding any more heat, and turbulence will make this worse in a hurry. Once the throat closes down and you can't get heat into it, you're screwed - the downward velocity will increase which causes the updraft against the balloon to increase, which pinches the throat even more, until the balloon completely deflates and becomes a streamer overhead. Many pilots have burned the hell out of the bottom 1/3 of an envelope trying to clear the throat and get enough heat in the remaining 2/3 to prevent hard impact, but if you're not successful you're going to make a big thud.

I'm sure the pilot probably thought he could save it before being sucked into the thunderstorm, but in hind sight he needed the weight of those skydivers to get him down. If he had dropped to around 2000' and told them to jump while they still had time to open their chutes, he might have had a fair chance.
 
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From the NTSB - "His most recent FAA third class medical certificate was issued March 4, 1997. "

So he was running a commercial operation, flying skydivers without a medical, (nevermind that he would need 2nd class, not his expired 3rd - how do you GET a commercial license without a 2nd class?) and flew his balloon into a level 5-6 TS....

:no:
 
airguy said:
From the NTSB - "His most recent FAA third class medical certificate was issued March 4, 1997. "

So he was running a commercial operation, flying skydivers without a medical, (nevermind that he would need 2nd class, not his expired 3rd - how do you GET a commercial license without a 2nd class?) and flew his balloon into a level 5-6 TS....

:no:
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What are you talking about? A balloon pilot doesn't require a medical.
 
airguy said:
From the NTSB - "His most recent FAA third class medical certificate was issued March 4, 1997. "

So he was running a commercial operation, flying skydivers without a medical, (nevermind that he would need 2nd class, not his expired 3rd - how do you GET a commercial license without a 2nd class?) and flew his balloon into a level 5-6 TS....

:no:
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You only need a third class medical to get any license. You may need a higher. But as otherwise pointed out, you don't need the medical to exercise the priviliges of a balloon certificate (student, sport, private or commercial...I don't think there are balloon ATPs).
 
flyingron said:
You only need a third class medical to get any license. You may need a higher. But as otherwise pointed out, you don't need the medical to exercise the priviliges of a balloon certificate (student, sport, private or commercial...I don't think there are balloon ATPs).
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I did not know that.....

There are 16 passenger balloons that give commercial rides....
Hard to believe someone that might have serious health issues, like overweight, diabetes, mental problems, heart problems, blindness etc. etc.etc... Can set up shop, plant a sign out front, buy a balloon and proceed to give rides to the general public without any FAA oversight....
 
N801BH said:
There are 16 passenger balloons that give commercial rides....
Hard to believe someone that might have serious health issues, like overweight, diabetes, mental problems, heart problems, blindness etc. etc.etc... Can set up shop, plant a sign out front, buy a balloon and proceed to give rides to the general public without any FAA oversight....
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I mean, surely there aren't overweight pilots flying 121. Or pilots with heart problems flying 121. Really? You want to require a medical for an unpowered aircraft?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I mean, surely there aren't overweight pilots flying 121. Or pilots with heart problems flying 121. Really? You want to require a medical for an unpowered aircraft?
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You are missing the point.... A person can carry 15 people aloft which in my mind is a commercial operation, expose those 15 humans to potential death and just because it is an unpowered ship they get a free pass:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
You are missing the point.... A person can carry 15 people aloft which in my mind is a commercial operation, expose those 15 humans to potential death and just because it is an unpowered ship they get a free pass:dunno:
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Ok? So what do you want to do? How are you going to make this situation better? Would a medical have changed a single thing in this incident? No.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ok? So what do you want to do? How are you going to make this situation better? Would a medical have changed a single thing in this incident? No.
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I am not talking about this incident... The concept of the FAA is to protect the traveling public. The fact there is no medical requirement for a commercial operator just because they operate a "unpowered" aircraft is hard to believe... IMHO
 
N801BH said:
I am not talking about this incident... The concept of the FAA is to protect the traveling public. The fact there is no medical requirement for a commercial operator just because they operate a "unpowered" aircraft is hard to believe... IMHO
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Of all the things that could happen in a balloon, pilot incapacitation would be low on the list of concerns I'd have. How many people do you know that travel in a hot air (or gas) balloon? Quite frankly, there are probably very few people that know anything about LTA in the FAA. I know that with airships, that's very much the case. Wouldn't think it's too much different over in the free balloon area.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Of all the things that could happen in a balloon, pilot incapacitation would be low on the list of concerns I'd have. How many people do you know that travel in a hot air (or gas) balloon? Quite frankly, there are probably very few people that know anything about LTA in the FAA. I know that with airships, that's very much the case. Wouldn't think it's too much different over in the free balloon area.
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Sir... I am not arguing with you... It just seems silly that as anal as the FAA is on private pilot medicals this can get a free pass...

Rant off....
 
N801BH said:
Sir... I am not arguing with you... It just seems silly that as anal as the FAA is on private pilot medicals this can get a free pass...

Rant off....
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How fast can you hit something with a balloon and how fast can you hit something with a 172. That is why there is a difference in medicals. I'm not trying to argue with you either, I just want to know what you want done.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
How fast can you hit something with a balloon and how fast can you hit something with a 172. That is why there is a difference in medicals. I'm not trying to argue with you either, I just want to know what you want done.
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I don't want ANYTHING done.:nonod::nonod::nonod::nonod:.

I am just pointing out the inconsistant mission of the FAA.. They worry about a PP flying a 150 with 1 other passenger crashing because of a medical issue and let a potential 16 fatality happen with no oversight on the balloon pilots health condition... Maybe I am reading too much into this and you, being a LTA pilot sees it 180 degrees differently... I respect your point of view though.
 
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The FAA at their best protects people on the ground from us, not people that choose to fly with us of their own free will. And certainly not us from ourselves. Let's just ban the carrying of passengers in GA aircraft- to protect them. You freedom hating retards.
 
ClimbnSink said:
The FAA at their best protects people on the ground from us, not people that choose to fly with us of their own free will. And certainly not us from ourselves. Let's just ban the carrying of passengers in GA aircraft- to protect them. You freedom hating retards.
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:yikes::yikes::dunno:
 
This video was produced for and used at the balloon pilot's memorial on Sunday. They've made it public on YouTube as a tribute to his life and memory.

 
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