Avionics Stack Recommendation/Suggestions

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DwayneSmithUSMC

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DwayneSmithUSMC
I've just closed on a Piper Cherokee 235 and I'm planning to install the following IFR avionics stack:

PS Engineering PMA7000-MS Audio Panel
Garmin GTN 650 (Nav/Com #1)
Garmin AT Apollo SL-30 (Nav/COm #2)
I already have a Mode S Transponder

I am trying to piece this stack together. What do you guys think about the IFR stack and do you have any suggestions for a better stack for around the same price or maybe a bit more expensive. I don't really have a price point in mind (I know the GTN 650 is expensive) I just want to piece together a great stack that will fit my needs for now and in the future.
 
I had the ps audio panel,worked fine,the panel looks good ,would add an stec 30 with altitude hold. Might even go for a garmin 530 instead of the 650 to save the money for the stec 30 .
 
frfly172 said:
I had the ps audio panel,worked fine,the panel looks good ,would add an stec 30 with altitude hold. Might even go for a garmin 530 instead of the 650 to save the money for the stec 30 .
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Ron,

Unfortunately I'm completely new to avionics and I don't know exactly what a stec 30 is. Please forgive my ignorance and please explain.
 
Dwayne - before we go any further inventing our personal favorite wish list, what type of flying will you be doing? What you've listed is perfectly fine for IFR and most anything else. As pointed out, if you want an autopilot, that's about the only item left to include.
 
I will be doing basic recreational close x-country IFR flying with the occasional long range family trip. I think an autopilot would be a nice to have for the longer trips so that will be on my list as well. Thanks for the input.
 
frfly172 said:
Might even go for a garmin 530 instead of the 650 to save the money for the stec 30 .
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Why buy 15 year old technology, pay big $ to install it and only save a couple of thousand.
Autopilots are big $$$, $20K installed...better off finding a plane with an AP already installed.
 
Check into the ability (budget and panel space) to put in the GTN 750.

We recently did that in our Bonanza V35 and I'm really digging the extra screen real estate and how it does it's job.
 

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Also check out the new competition in the GPS market. Both Avidyne's 540 and Bendix King's 770 are now certified and I am hearing eager to get market share.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Check into the ability (budget and panel space) to put in the GTN 750.



We recently did that in our Bonanza V35 and I'm really digging the extra screen real estate and how it does it's job.
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That's yesterday's technology, get the 650, flightstream 210, and a ipad. Ipad gives the MFD function, all the real estate you could want.
 
If I flew cross country and I had a choice between a new 650 with no autopilot vs a used 430 with a working autopilot, I would take the autopilot. Even if it had just one axis. Especially for IFR.

If I only flew locally, I wouldn't spend anything on avionics unless it was broken. Except for an engine analyzer -- I love mine.
 
The plane has an engine analyzer. I will have to fly cross country next year as I'm moving to GA. The plane does not have an autopilot so I will probably prioritize that. Thanks for the input everyone.
 
Other than subbing a 750 for the 650, you will not go wrong with that package in a PA28-235. Things you may want to add later include the S-Tec 30 autopilot with GPSS roll steering module and an Aspen PFD, but the list you posted will do very well as is.
 
teejayevans said:
That's yesterday's technology, get the 650, flightstream 210, and a ipad. Ipad gives the MFD function, all the real estate you could want.
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Maybe... but the GTN750 is an IFR certified system, providing the capacity to shot many types of approaches under it's guidance, legally. iPad, not so much.
 
FYI, the panel I provided a picture of was about $43K completely installed.

What came out was much of the original instrumentation, original panel overlay with many hodge podged upgrades, and several 1980's avionics.

What went in was a new overlay, new harnesses, Aspen PFD1000, PSE 8000BT audio panel, GTN750, USB power ports, Nu-Ring lighting, and behind the panel work for when we want to add an ADS-B out solution.

Our club members couldn't be happier with the aircraft. And it has gone from flying about 20 hours a month to over 45 hrs per month. And our hardcore IFR members can't say enough about the reduction in workload over the old stuff.
 
What do you guys think of the Bendix King KMA 30 audio panel as opposed to the PS Engineering?
 
As someone who flys IFR for a living

I'd go with a 430W and/or 530W over the touch screens, from a flying point of view I just like having the knobs.

Next thing is how are you going to depict this data?

If you're spending this kind of money you're going to want a HSI.

There is the King unit or the EHSI from Sandel, which is really nice.
If you go the king HSI route you can still use the solid state Sandel gyro/magnomoneter box and avoid that king anchor.

Or a garmin or aspin PFD

You're going to need a autopilot if you're serious, vs just wanting a pretty stack, about IFR in IMC. There is a good reason us single pilot IFR guys in the working world HAVE to have a autopilot.

You'll need one that is at least 2 axis and can fly a coupled approach, stec makes some good examples.

Also you'll need a OAT gauge if you don't already have one



DwayneSmithUSMC said:
What do you guys think of the Bendix King KMA 30 audio panel as opposed to the PS Engineering?
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It's a audio panel.

I've always liked the Garmins, never had to buy one though.

I'd just look for the best deal, not like it's a auto pilot, RNAV system or something

Not sure if you can back out of that deal on that plane now, if you can I would unless you're buying it for pennies on the dollar.
Frankly youre way better off buying a plane that already has a good avionics package vs upgrading everything, there is little to no ROI on avionics upgrades.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Maybe... but the GTN750 is an IFR certified system, providing the capacity to shot many types of approaches under it's guidance, legally. iPad, not so much.
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But that's the beauty of it, you get best of both worlds, add a GDL88 and you can overlay weather, traffic on your big moving map, great for situation awareness, but the certified box is doing the navigation and is backup if your iPad goes belly up. The 210 is only a little more than the 39, and you good for 2020. The iPad can also run independent of the 650, and serves as a non certified backup
Another reason to go with smaller 650, it gives you more room to have crucial avionics on the left side, I don't like having to reach across to push buttons or read the displays, too hard to maintain a proper scan.
The 650, 88, 210 combo should run around $20k installed.
 
DwayneSmithUSMC said:
What do you guys think of the Bendix King KMA 30 audio panel as opposed to the PS Engineering?
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The KMA30 is a rebranded PS Engineering PMA8000BT. The PS Engineering audio panels are the gold standard, if I were buying today, I'd get a PSE PMA 8000BT (I have an 8000B, same animal without the Bluetooth).

If the Bendix King branded box is priced better, no reason not to get that.

The Garmin audio panels are good, but the PS ones are better.
 
SCCutler said:
The KMA30 is a rebranded PS Engineering PMA8000BT. The PS Engineering audio panels are the gold standard, if I were buying today, I'd get a PSE PMA 8000BT (I have an 8000B, same animal without the Bluetooth).

If the Bendix King branded box is priced better, no reason not to get that.

The Garmin audio panels are good, but the PS ones are better.
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I was thinking that same thing. The KMA30 even looks almost identical to the PS Engineering. Thanks for the input. I've found the 8000BT for about $100 cheaper than the KMA30. I'll go with that.
 
DwayneSmithUSMC said:
What do you guys think of the Bendix King KMA 30 audio panel as opposed to the PS Engineering?
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I wouldn't put anything bendix king in my panel. But that's me.

Last year I put in a 650 and a ps engineering 8000bt audio panel. Very happy with the results. If I had the space, a 750 would have been nice. But I a still very happy with the 650.
 
James331 said:
Not sure if you can back out of that deal on that plane now, if you can I would unless you're buying it for pennies on the dollar.
Frankly youre way better off buying a plane that already has a good avionics package vs upgrading everything, there is little to no ROI on avionics upgrades.
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I have never found airplanes to be great investments. Just the closest thing to a time machine that I could find. There is some value to getting exactly what you want avionics wise. What value you place on that is entirely up to you.
 
James331 said:

Frankly youre way better off buying a plane that already has a good avionics package vs upgrading everything, there is little to no ROI on avionics upgrades.
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ROI, on a airplane:lol:
Here is my view, buy a plane that is solid maintenance wise: corrosion free, descent paint job, and a good engine, then upgrade the avionics with the bells and whistles that you want, then fly the wings off. You get the pleasure of the avionics, and if you select carefully, they will still be desirable to have 10+ years from now and for every hour your fly with them, their cost per hour drops.
 
Personally, I am not fond of the SL30s. They have a lot of cute features (most of which I never use) and they are very compact. The cost of this is that they can't display both primary and secondary comm and nav frequencies simultaneously, just comm or just nav. I always have to stop and think about what's being displayed before doing something with the radio. And that boils down to thinking about the frequencies displayed because the little light is just that --- little. More than once I have switched nav frequencies when I thought I was switching from Approach to Tower. That is A Bad Thing when navigating off that radio.

I prefer a KX-155 style display with four frequencies. I don't know what the most modern incarnation of this type of radio is, but I would investigate it if I were you. Probably it will do the same tricks that the SL30 will do.

+1 on all the autopilot recommendations.
 
Thanks @Airdale that is good insight. I currently have a KX-155 installed but was planning to upgrade it. I think that the most recent version of this radio would be good. I wouldn't want to have that type of problem with the SL-30
 
I agree with you Tom and Chris. I'm not looking at this as an investment, I'm looking at it as something I can keep forever, upgrade how I want it to be, and hand off to my kids once they're old enough. Also, I can't seem to see your pics. Does anyone know why?
 
airdale said:
The cost of this is that they can't display both primary and secondary comm and nav frequencies simultaneously, just comm or just nav. I always have to stop and think about what's being displayed before doing something with the radio.
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You won't like the GTN 650 for the same reason...I always return it to com mode after playing with nav after making the above mistake a few times, consistency insures proper muscle memory
 
teejayevans said:
You won't like the GTN 650 for the same reason...I always return it to com mode after playing with nav after making the above mistake a few times, consistency insures proper muscle memory
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Wow. I didn't know that. That's a real step backward from the G430/530/1000. I am still skeptical about touch screens in other than glass-smooth air, but that UI defect would make me doubly skeptical about "upgrading" to the new boxes. I generally talk on Com1 (the GPS) and listen on Com2 (ATIS, Guard, ...) so the frequency display issue would be much more important to me on the GPS than on the SL30.

Always switching back to Com mode makes sense but it's still one more thing to remember and one more thing to check.
 
airdale said:
Wow. I didn't know that. That's a real step backward from the G430/530/1000.
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They did it to maximize screen real estate, the difference between GTN 650 and the much larger 770 is 0.8" diagonal, on top of that removing the nav frequencies gives more room for the map, they figure if you are using GPS you don't have a need to be dialing in nav frequencies that often, so it's not something that needs to be on the screen all the time.
I had a 430, the 650 is definitely a step or two forward in usability, screen quality...I hope to never have to test it in severe/moderate turbulence.
BTW, it still has a button/knob that works the same as before if you prefer that instead of just keying in the frequencies.
 
teejayevans said:
They did it to maximize screen real estate, the difference between GTN 650 and the much larger 770 is 0.8" diagonal, on top of that removing the nav frequencies gives more room for the map, they figure if you are using GPS you don't have a need to be dialing in nav frequencies that often, so it's not something that needs to be on the screen all the time. ...
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Yes, obviously, it was a real estate tradeoff but from looking at the photos of the 650 it looks to me like it was to get much larger digits for the frequency numbers -- probably for better touch. I think the G430 4-frequency display would fit into the same real estate that now only two frequencies occupy. Re not dialing nav frequencies, I would add "except for every ILS." After selecting an ILS I always check to make sure that the ILS frequency has popped into the nav radio.

At this point the touch Garmins look to me like a big step forward in reducing manufacturing cost due to elimination of all the buttons, with the downside being the UI. Just out of curiosity, I use Direct-Enter-Enter frequently to center the CDI, like after departing an airport where the flight plan magenta line is still anchored to the airport itself. How easy is it to do that maneuver when there is no Enter button?
 
Dwayne -- avionics investments should be made only if you plan on hanging on and enjoying the plane a bit. I have owned the same Mooney for 23 years and it is a plane I'm obviously keeping with this level of investment:

qy7eqaja.jpg


If you decide to upgrade, feel free to PM me with questions. BTW -- I am looking at both the Avidyne 540 as well as the Bendix King 770 to replace my second Nav/Com.

The PSE 8000BT is a great audio panel. I like the 650 but rely upon the Aspens to display the majority of the inflight information.
 
Umm. Geez I don't even lights in my gauges...


<< Sent from my mobile device at 0agl >>
 
teejayevans said:
ROI, on a airplane:lol:
Here is my view, buy a plane that is solid maintenance wise: corrosion free, descent paint job, and a good engine, then upgrade the avionics with the bells and whistles that you want, then fly the wings off. You get the pleasure of the avionics, and if you select carefully, they will still be desirable to have 10+ years from now and for every hour your fly with them, their cost per hour drops.
Click to expand...


I've sold my plane for more than I paid for it, fuel costs and some light mx aside, it beat inflation for me.

The plane I found for one of my friends has actually made money between the lowball price I got it for, and the money it's rented out for.

My new whip, presuming all turns out on the prebuy annual, its outfitted exactly the way I want it, might add HID lights but that's about it.

When it comes to upgrades on planes, I can do, or get, paint and interior done for next to nothing, avionics (and engine upgrades) are where you loose your arse.
 

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