average cost to make a vfr aircraft IFR

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
Ballpark average cost assuming two comms, all gauges etc. General cost to go from vfr to ifr in an older plane?
 
Depends on what it needs... pitot heat, other items per FAR 23.
 
$7,233.06...give or take.
 
It depends what you want. Henning is right....too many variables. Do you want glas cockpit? Used Garmin 430/530? New Garmin 750 or 650? Dual nav coms? HSI? Autopilot? Too many what ifs.
 
It could be anywhere from $400 or so for some paperwork up to an infinite amount of money if the TC has a VFR limitation.
 
muleywannabe said:
Gotcha. Finding used i assume, definitely auto pilot
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Autopilots even finding a used one that is either TC'd to the plane, or buying an STC you're looking at a minimum of $5500 up to $20k or more, that's the AP alone.
 
With the wide (and good) variety of aircraft already well equipped for IFR and certified for IFR, why not get one of those?

For some types, the price delta I've seen between IFR and VFR only isn't that much and sure less than the cost/pain/trouble of updating the VFR aircraft.
 
Henning said:
Autopilots even finding a used one that is either TC'd to the plane, or buying an STC you're looking at a minimum of $5500 up to $20k or more, that's the AP alone.
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Yeah, and good luck with that. I don't know of any autopilot manufacturers who will give you an STC for an autopilot sold for a different N number. Do NOT purchase a used autopilot without first discussing it with someone authorized to install it.
 
Blackhawk said:
Yeah, and good luck with that. I don't know of any autopilot manufacturers who will give you an STC for an autopilot sold for a different N number. Do NOT purchase a used autopilot without first discussing it with someone authorized to install it.
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Yep, S-TEC will sell you one after you send the one you find into them for overhaul which ends up costing what you can get a new one for. The only practical way to do a used one is to get one listed on the type certificate, i.e. you get a Cessna 300 or 400 for a 182.
 
Henning said:
Autopilots even finding a used one that is either TC'd to the plane, or buying an STC you're looking at a minimum of $5500 up to $20k or more, that's the AP alone.
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Or, he could come to the darkside and get an experimental where he could buy an autopilot for 1/10th the cost listed above then complete the install himself.
 
JHW said:
Pitot heat not required.
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Yes it is.

23.1323 Airspeed indicating system.
"...
(d) If certification for instrument flight rules or flight in icing conditions is requested, each airspeed system must have a heated pitot tube or an equivalent means of preventing malfunction due to icing."

Pitot heat was not required for CAR 3 airplanes certified for IFR, however since the current regulation requires pitot heat any VFR only airplane certified under CAR 3 requires pitot heat.

FAR 91.205 is not the be all end all.

I looked at what was required to certify my 8KCAB for IFR and this is was the major requirement. In addition it was not possible to certify an 8KCAB for IFR with a wood spar.
 
Unless you have big $$ to spend, my advice is look for a plane that has substantially everything you want in I t already. Yes it makes it more expensive, but the cost of installation and avionics, systems etc is already factored in. Even then, you may be looking at big $$.
 
"21.115 Applicable requirements.
(a) Each applicant for a supplemental type certificate must show that the altered product meets applicable requirements specified in §21.101..."

"21.101 Designation of applicable regulations.
(a) An applicant for a change to a type certificate must show that the change and areas affected by the change comply with the airworthiness requirements applicable to the category of the product in effect on the date of the application for the change..."

In other words the minimum standards for getting an STC to make the airplane legal for IFR are listed in FAR 23, no matter when the airplane was certified. Other stuff like IFR GPS, autopilot are nice but not required and will obviously add to the cost.
 
Blackhawk said:
...Pitot heat was not required for CAR 3 airplanes certified for IFR, however since the current regulation requires pitot heat any VFR only airplane certified under CAR 3 requires pitot heat...
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nope, a car3 plane can fly ifr with no pitot heat. Similarly, there was no definition of FIKI certification for many of those planes. As an example of each, my cherokee 180 had no pitot heat but was legal for IFR, and my travel air left the factory inthe 50's with boots and hot props but no FIKI paperwork as we know it today. Not necessarily smart but it is legal. Another example is DC3's with boots still flying in FIKI conditions today.
 
Blackhawk said:
In other words the minimum standards for getting an STC to make the airplane legal for IFR are listed in FAR 23, no matter when the airplane was certified. Other stuff like IFR GPS, autopilot are nice but not required and will obviously add to the cost.
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assumes facts not in evidence. If the airframe itself did not prohibit IFR then there is nothing to STC. just do a pitot stat and transponder check and you're good to go. My old cherokee again is a perfect example.
 
JHW said:
nope, a car3 plane can fly ifr with no pitot heat. Similarly, there was no definition of FIKI certification for many of those planes. As an example of each, my cherokee 180 had no pitot heat but was legal for IFR, and my travel air left the factory inthe 50's with boots and hot props but no FIKI paperwork as we know it today. Not necessarily smart but it is legal. Another example is DC3's with boots still flying in FIKI conditions today.
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Yes, it can. But that is only if certified for IFR under CAR 3. In order to make a VFR CAR 3 airplane IFR it must comply with FAR 23. The examples you gave are airplanes that were certified for IFR under CAR 3. Since the OP is asking about making an airplane legal for IFR I must assume the airplane was NOT certified for IFR and thus it requires pitot heat. See my reference to FAR 21.
 
Blackhawk said:
Yes, it can. But that is only if certified for IFR under CAR 3. In order to make a VFR CAR 3 airplane IFR it must comply with FAR 23. The examples you gave are airplanes that were certified for IFR under CAR 3. Since the OP is asking about making an airplane legal for IFR I must assume the airplane was NOT certified for IFR and thus it requires pitot heat. See my reference to FAR 21.
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i assumed the opposite, that he really doesn't know the distinction and is talking about a spam can like my old cherokee that has merely let the static tubing rot and and the inspections lapse, and all it needs is a little elbow grease and an inspection.
 
JHW said:
assumes facts not in evidence. If the airframe itself did not prohibit IFR then there is nothing to STC. just do a pitot stat and transponder check and you're good to go. My old cherokee again is a perfect example.
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That will depend on what is on his type certificate. Again, I gave the example of the 8KCAB- it does not have IFR on its type certificate so it requires pitot heat.
 
Blackhawk said:
Yes, it can. But that is only if certified for IFR under CAR 3. In order to make a VFR CAR 3 airplane IFR it must comply with FAR 23. The examples you gave are airplanes that were certified for IFR under CAR 3. Since the OP is asking about making an airplane legal for IFR I must assume the airplane was NOT certified for IFR and thus it requires pitot heat. See my reference to FAR 21.
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You keep saying that but it is NOT entirely true. Unless there is a VFR only restriction in the aircraft docs, all you need to do is meet the 91.205 and the various inspection requirements. You can take an old CAR 3 aircraft that had no gyros, put them in (and whatever else is need) and be perfectly legal. There is no requirement to bring it up to part 21 specs.

Your FAR quote is entirely spurious. An airplane owner does not change the TYPE CERTIFICATE. That is something that applies to the manufacturer.
 
Blackhawk said:
"21.115 Applicable requirements.
(a) Each applicant for a supplemental type certificate must show that the altered product meets applicable requirements specified in §21.101..."

"21.101 Designation of applicable regulations.
(a) An applicant for a change to a type certificate must show that the change and areas affected by the change comply with the airworthiness requirements applicable to the category of the product in effect on the date of the application for the change..."

In other words the minimum standards for getting an STC to make the airplane legal for IFR are listed in FAR 23, no matter when the airplane was certified. Other stuff like IFR GPS, autopilot are nice but not required and will obviously add to the cost.
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You don't need an STC for approval for IFR if the airplane's original type certificate allows IFR flight. So if you're talking about a 1956 C-172 with no pitot heat, there is no requirement to add pitot heat to fly it IFR today. Where that stuff would come in would be if you are trying to get approval to fly a Diamond DA-20 IFR, since that aircraft's type certificate approves only VFR operations.
 
JHW said:
assumes facts not in evidence. If the airframe itself did not prohibit IFR then there is nothing to STC. just do a pitot stat and transponder check and you're good to go. My old cherokee again is a perfect example.
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You don't even need the 91.413 transponder check if the plane doesn't have a transponder or you intend not to use it -- transponder is not required for IFR operations. OTOH, the 91.413 checks are required even for VFR operation of your transponder.
 
If we're talking about a truly VFR-only plane (i.e., one with nothing more than the 91.205(b)-required Day VFR equipment), and you want a full, 21st century IFR panel (i.e., all required instruments, dual nav/comm, transponder, audio panel/intercom, IFR WAAS GPS,2-axis autopilot, etc), you're probably talking about writing a check for at least $50K to your avionics shop. OTOH, if you're talking about taking a plane with the "usual" VFR package seen in most primary trainers (6-pack instruments, single nav/comm, transponder with encoder, audio panel/intercom) and bringing it to what I'd consider a comfortable IFR package with simple autopilot (like an S-Tec 20), that could be done for under $20K, or less if you don't put in a GPS.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't need an STC for approval for IFR if the airplane's original type certificate allows IFR flight. So if you're talking about a 1956 C-172 with no pitot heat, there is no requirement to add pitot heat to fly it IFR today. Where that stuff would come in would be if you are trying to get approval to fly a Diamond DA-20 IFR, since that aircraft's type certificate approves only VFR operations.
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Which I wrote later. But again, OP did not say this one way or another. My other example of an 8KCAB, certified under CAR 3 but for day/night VFR only, not IFR. It would have to comply with FAR 23.
 
flyingron said:
You keep saying that but it is NOT entirely true. Unless there is a VFR only restriction in the aircraft docs, all you need to do is meet the 91.205 and the various inspection requirements. You can take an old CAR 3 aircraft that had no gyros, put them in (and whatever else is need) and be perfectly legal. There is no requirement to bring it up to part 21 specs.

Your FAR quote is entirely spurious. An airplane owner does not change the TYPE CERTIFICATE. That is something that applies to the manufacturer.
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Not spurious. If it is an airplane type certified for day/night VFR only they will need an STC. Again, two examples- PA28 certified for IFR under CAR 3. No issue. 8KCAB certified VFR only under CAR 3 must meet FAR 23 and get an STC.
 
Seems like a lot of pain in the rear type of stuff going on there. I would have to agree with a few of you and see what it takes to buy one already equipped. No point in spending the extra money when there are tons of aircraft out there that already have it on them.
 
muleywannabe said:
Seems like a lot of pain in the rear type of stuff going on there. I would have to agree with a few of you and see what it takes to buy one already equipped. No point in spending the extra money when there are tons of aircraft out there that already have it on them.
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Good thinking.
 
OK I will guess $23561.09.:)
 
There are a lot of aircraft out there right now, hopefully the market is at a low as we know that there is a ton of aircraft for sale relatively cheap.
 
Blackhawk said:
Not spurious. If it is an airplane type certified for day/night VFR only they will need an STC. Again, two examples- PA28 certified for IFR under CAR 3. No issue. 8KCAB certified VFR only under CAR 3 must meet FAR 23 and get an STC.
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The 8KCAB was certified day VFR under Part 23. It has to meet the Part 23 requirements as that is under which it was certificated. It doesn't need to be an STC If the type certificate holder does it.

You find me a CAR3 bird with a TC or required operating limitation that precludes it being operated IFR, I ****MIGHT**** start to believe you.
 
like anything else, try to find the plane already equipped the way you want. You pay a fraction of the price vs. equipping it yourself.

in a certified plane, autopilot is an easy 15k, waas GPS easily runs north of 10k, GPSS another 1500, etc. It would be great to have a second set of radios and even a second VOR with glideslope would be nice.

I'm not sure about experimental, but I believe it has to have an original type certificate for IFR flight into IMC. Double check me on that b/c I'm not 100% positive.
 
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