Auto Gas STC

weilke said:
Once there is an STC for a particular modification, the FAA typically requires you to use the STC instead of the major alteration process.
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Not true..
 
Skylane81E said:
Even the FAA respects IC. Besides I suspect that the field approval would cost more than $1.50 a HP.

You'll have to prove the fuel has no negative affect on ANY and EVERY part of the fuel system from the cap to the tail pipe then you must prove that the engine makes the same HP while maintaining detonation margins at all operating temperatures.
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(Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that it might be *practical* - just wondered whether it might be an *option* for the frustrated Mr Hernandez.)
 
JoeSelch said:
Is this something that Jhernandez could get a field approval on instead of buying an STC?
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He could try, but Peterson & EAA did the engineering way back years ago, and it took for ever to get it done. and then there was basically no difference between leaded auto and 80/87.

I'd hate to see the required testing that would be required on the new un-leaded stuff we get now.
 
Tom-D said:
I'd hate to see the required testing that would be required on the new un-leaded stuff we get now.
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Lycoming already approved it for most of the lower compression non-turbo engines.
It'll come down to the airframe aspect and given that 91UL is not much different from 100LL in its composition and vapor pressure, I dont think it'll be that big of a challenge.
 
Tom-D said:
Lycoming is not the FAA
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Sure, but amended type certificates that list 91UL as an approved fuel will take care of the 'data' when it comes to the engine part of the equation.
 
weilke said:
Sure, but amended type certificates that list 91UL as an approved fuel will take care of the 'data' when it comes to the engine part of the equation.
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Do you believe a few Lycoming engines approved for 91UL will change the market that much?
 
I forget, are we now talking about getting a new STC for auto gas, or Lycoming engines?
 
Tom-D said:
Do you believe a few Lycoming engines approved for 91UL will change the market that much?
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If someone comes up with an STC or if the TC holders just add it in a revision, it'll fix the lead problem for the majority of the fleet. Yeah, I think it'll change the market. It will make boring planes with boring low-compression engines a lot more interesting.
 
weilke said:
If someone comes up with an STC or if the TC holders just add it in a revision, it'll fix the lead problem for the majority of the fleet. Yeah, I think it'll change the market. It will make boring planes with boring low-compression engines a lot more interesting.
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That's a big If,, lycoming isn't the major portion of the market.
 
Tom-D said:
That's a big If,, lycoming isn't the major portion of the market.
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Post 70s Cessnas and all Pipers. If I hear a plane and look up, it's usually one of the two. Not too many Franklin powered Bellancas around.

As for the 'If', people have come up with more obscure STCs than that. Once we have a 10 year sunset on 100LL, there is going to be ample incentive to come up with solutions. Not interesting as a market for anything less than $2000 a pop, but once the alternatives are beer cans or conversion, there will be market enough even for engine changes and ignition upgrades.
 
weilke said:
Post 70s Cessnas and all Pipers. If I hear a plane and look up, it's usually one of the two. Not too many Franklin powered Bellancas around.

As for the 'If', people have come up with more obscure STCs than that. Once we have a 10 year sunset on 100LL, there is going to be ample incentive to come up with solutions. Not interesting as a market for anything less than $2000 a pop, but once the alternatives are beer cans or conversion, there will be market enough even for engine changes and ignition upgrades.
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IOWs none of the C-series or 0, IO TSIO, continentals count. Piper J series, Cessna 120,140,170,172 thru 67, 180,185 and the 200 series singles are of no matter to the market. let alone any of the radial fleet of P&W Jacobs that are still buying gas. all would have to be tested for the STC for each.

Any wonder no one is trying to gain approval for 91UL ?

It will require the FAA to declare 91UL an approved alternative to 100LL and 100VLL.

I don't see it happening any time soon.
 
weirdjim said:
OK, so I'll bring a stupid question to the table. WHere in the USA can you still get real gasoline?
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I'm going to resurrect this zombie thread yet again to answer.

Alcohol is NOT in the gas when it's put into the tanker at the terminal. It is added separately, then slosh-mixes on the way to the gas station and as it's poured into the ground tank.

Many terminals will sell non-oxygenated gasoline for off-road use.

My nearest source for autogas is Sierra Fuel in Reno. They have 87 octane (where have we seen THAT number before?) for normal car-gas price, from a pump right outside the gate. They also carry Aeroshell and and Phillips aviation oil. They're nice guys and have this pretty much all year.

The reason that alcohol is prohibited is because it attracts and holds water, which then screws up aluminum fuel system components, and it can attack some older rubber and plastic parts.
 
This list is not complete. There are dozens of mogas sites in Wichita alone that are not on this list.


Jim Logajan said:
A list of gas stations carrying ethanol-free gas in the U.S. and Canada:
http://www.pure-gas.org/

A list of airports:
http://www.flyunleaded.com/airports.php

Several other online resources and groups that get access to it:
http://e0pc.com/
http://www.aviationfuelclub.org/

An Avweb podcast with Ken Misegades on this subject, which provided the seeds to finding the above and contains other suggestions:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Whatever_Happened_To_Mogas_202861-1.html
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
This list is not complete. There are dozens of mogas sites in Wichita alone that are not on this list.
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Those sites appear to have ways for you to enter that information into their lists. If you are able and willing, I'm sure everyone using those sites would appreciate the updates.
 
SoloEqs said:
I'm going to resurrect this zombie thread yet again to answer.

Alcohol is NOT in the gas when it's put into the tanker at the terminal. It is added separately, then slosh-mixes on the way to the gas station and as it's poured into the ground tank.

Many terminals will sell non-oxygenated gasoline for off-road use.
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Depends where in the country you are. In areas where oxygeneates are required by law, you may not find refining stock that is suitable for making any sort of legal (off road or not) gasoline without ethanol being added to it.
 
flyingron said:
Depends where in the country you are. In areas where oxygeneates are required by law, you may not find refining stock that is suitable for making any sort of legal (off road or not) gasoline without ethanol being added to it.
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The refiners are shutting down their regular unleaded lines. North Dakota used to get some regular unleaded out of the Livingston,MT refinery, a couple of weeks ago all the marketers were informed that the only option going forward is RBOB and corn-juice.
 
flyingron said:
Depends where in the country you are. In areas where oxygeneates are required by law, you may not find refining stock that is suitable for making any sort of legal (off road or not) gasoline without ethanol being added to it.
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It's there, whether they will sell it to you is a different question.

Oxygenated gasoline is only required for use on the highways, not for any other purpose.

However, this is a very good reason to use metal floats in your carb, not plastic, foam, epoxy or anything else that alcohol might attack.
 
Almost every larger town has a place that automotive racers get their fuel that is almost always ethanol free. Ask at the local track.
 
KTWM, KAIT, KLJF, KSGS, are places where you can get mogas at the airport.


So let's say you have a plane that requires no mechanical modifications to run Mogas, just new placards and a page in the POH.... What if you don't actually buy the STC and just run the stuff anyway? :rofl:
 
denverpilot said:
Almost every larger town has a place that automotive racers get their fuel that is almost always ethanol free. Ask at the local track.
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The Exxon station a mile from my place (Dexter, OR) is selling ethanol-free premium gas for $5.20/gallon. No other ethanol-free grades available there.
A few miles away at Creswell airport 100LL is being sold for $5.76/gallon. Jet-A is going for $4.54/gallon

While that Exxon has always had higher prices than average for this area, the price difference in this case doesn't seem terribly large.

Now if there were a cheap way to engineer a Jet-A STC for the Cessnas I rent....
 
MSPAviator said:
So let's say you have a plane that requires no mechanical modifications to run Mogas, just new placards and a page in the POH.... What if you don't actually buy the STC and just run the stuff anyway? :rofl:
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Your airplane will automatically crash into a school for handicapped children and your insurance will not pay.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Your airplane will automatically crash into a school for handicapped children and your insurance will not pay.
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Handicapped blind children. Get it right. Sheesh.

I'm not so sure they couldn't put up an "Airplane Crash Free Zone" sign though, and make it all safe for those handicapped blind kids. We better do it. Quick!
 
denverpilot said:
Almost every larger town has a place that automotive racers get their fuel that is almost always ethanol free. Ask at the local track.
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100LL is so much cheaper around here we were always chasing hot rodders away

"Oh your car has cats, you really don't want this stuff!"
 
Skylane81E said:
100LL is so much cheaper around here we were always chasing hot rodders away

"Oh your car has cats, you really don't want this stuff!"
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Ha. Interesting. The race fuel place here has 92 octane no-ethanol for $1/gal cheaper than 100LL. The problem with that is, they're 20 miles from most of the airports.

By the time you figure in the costs of the right gear and drive time to go get it, it's a wash unless you already have a 500 gallon tanker truck you weren't using. ;)

My airplane co-owner built a 100 gallon tank trailer anyway, for fun and as a hedge against something skyrocketing 100LL prices, but we've never used it.
 
It's not just about the money, Nate.

Running MoGas, or at least a 50/50 blend is better for your engine if you have an old low compression continental that was designed to burn 80 octane.

At least that's been my experience with both an o300 and o470. They both seemed to like a 2/3 MoGas to 1/3 avgas mix best. Cleaner plugs, smoother running, tighter EGT spreads, etc.

Remember that the old 80 octane avgas was basically the same gas as the old leaded 87 octane mogas.
 
timwinters said:
It's not just about the money, Nate.

Running MoGas, or at least a 50/50 blend is better for your engine if you have an old low compression continental that was designed to burn 80 octane.

At least that's been my experience with both an o300 and o470. They both seemed to like a 2/3 MoGas to 1/3 avgas mix best. Cleaner plugs, smoother running, tighter EGT spreads, etc.

Remember that the old 80 octane avgas was basically the same gas as the old leaded 87 octane mogas.
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True. We get some MoGas every year at KEIK but not in that quantity.
 
denverpilot said:
Almost every larger town has a place that automotive racers get their fuel that is almost always ethanol free. Ask at the local track.
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In fact, other than the airport, the race track used to be the last place you could buy leaded fuels. We had about 108 octane leaded and 100 octane UL.
The prices make avgas look cheap however.

If you're around some place with a lot of low level racing, you might find guys showing up at the airport with 5 gallon cans to buy 100LL to race with.
 
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