auto gas stc

Aztec Driver

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Bryon
The owner of the Tiger I fly wants to cut costs on fuel a little. He was wondering what the procedures are and the approximate cost involved in using auto gas for the airplane. It has a standard 0-360 Lycoming 180 hp engine. Can this even be done?

Bryon
 
I'm not really sure what they do during the conversion but I'd like to add a few more questions to your thread.

Is there a loss in peak power?
Dose it run as well on 100LL after the conversion?
Can you lean the same or do you have to run richer with auto fuel to keep the engine cool?
What octane do you have to use?
Can the fuels be mixed at any ratio?
 
Aztec Driver said:
The owner of the Tiger I fly wants to cut costs on fuel a little. He was wondering what the procedures are and the approximate cost involved in using auto gas for the airplane. It has a standard 0-360 Lycoming 180 hp engine. Can this even be done?

Bryon

Bryon,

A quick look at the EAA Auto Fuel website indicates that if the engine is certified for 100 octane, it cannot be Auto Fuel STCd under their STC. I believe the Tiger runs on 100LL.

The Petersen site does not show the Tiger Airframe. As far as the engine goes, there isn't enough info in your post. You may or may not know that both the engine and the airframe must be certified for the use of auto fuel.

Iceman said:
I'm not really sure what they do during the conversion but I'd like to add a few more questions to your thread.

Is there a loss in peak power?

I can't answer that except for the airplanes I fly. I have not noticed any and that includes operating a 170 with an O-300, a Fairchild with a Ranger, and a 195 with a 275 Jake.

Dose it run as well on 100LL after the conversion?

Sometimes better. If the engine was originally certified for 80 octane, my experience is that the engine will like auto gas better than 100LL.

Can you lean the same or do you have to run richer with auto fuel to keep the engine cool?

I haven't noticed any difference.


What octane do you have to use?

That depends on the engine and the particular STC. The lower compression engines use 87, the higher ones use 93.

Can the fuels be mixed at any ratio?

Sure. It doesn't matter.
 
Last edited:
Aztec Driver said:
The owner of the Tiger I fly wants to cut costs on fuel a little. He was wondering what the procedures are and the approximate cost involved in using auto gas for the airplane. It has a standard 0-360 Lycoming 180 hp engine. Can this even be done?

The cost will be $180 ($1/hp) unless things have changed. Try Peterson Aviation:
www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/PetersenAviation.html

or the EAA:

www.eaa.org.

Between the two of them you should be able to get an STC if it exists.
 
Regrettably, there is no autogas STC available from Petersen or EAA or anyone else for the Tiger. Although the airframe is certified for 87 octane autogas in its AA-5A configuration, and the O-360-A4K is certified for 91 octane autogas, the AA-5B/O-360-A4K combination has no STC, and nobody with the proper knowledge to get it done feels the market worth the money that would have to be invested.
 
Ron Levy said:
Regrettably, there is no autogas STC available from Petersen or EAA or anyone else for the Tiger. Although the airframe is certified for 87 octane autogas in its AA-5A configuration, and the O-360-A4K is certified for 91 octane autogas, the AA-5B/O-360-A4K combination has no STC, and nobody with the proper knowledge to get it done feels the market worth the money that would have to be invested.

Just a question on that. Why would an airframe matter? An A4K is an A4K is it not? Not sure why you would need an STC for an airframe on something like fuel.
 
N2212R said:
Just a question on that. Why would an airframe matter? An A4K is an A4K is it not? Not sure why you would need an STC for an airframe on something like fuel.

One thing that might be different is the amount of air cooling that the aircraft has for the engine. This is very important because the main purpose of the higher octane and lead in the fuel is to keep the engine/top end cool.
 
I have been doing some research on auto gas and below is some of what I have come up with.



In 1982 EAA received approval from the FAA to provide an STC that allowed certain types of aircraft engines to use auto fuel instead of more costly avgas. This was the result of years of research and testing conducted by EAA staff and volunteers.



Total money saved by EAA Auto fuel STC’d aircraft in 1999.

19,109,776.4 x $.65 gallon price difference between auto fuel and 100LL = $12,421,345.66



Aircraft owners choose automotive fuel rather than aviation fuel for a variety of reasons. The primary reason is cost. The savings in fuel prices between auto fuel and avgas are quite significant. In an airplane using 15 gallons per hour, a savings of only 50 cents per gallon will be $7.50 per hour less than the cost of using avgas. In 200 hours, this adds up to $1500.00. Savings of even half this amount would clearly justify the installation of an auto fuel STC.



Auto fuel is safe for use in approved aircraft, however not all auto gas is the same there are over 100 different blends of auto gas in the United States and depending on the time of year the blends change.



I ran a check and found 34 STC’s for use of auto fuel. If you would like a list send me your address and I can send you a hard copy of the list by manufacture and type of aircraft to use it on.



Please note that certain STC's are only for engines that are certified for the use of 80 octane fuel. Engines requiring 100 octane fuel must still use 100 octane avgas. This is because of detonation. Detonation will not be a problem when using any grade of automobile gasoline with an aircraft engine approved for use of 80 octane fuel (hopefully).



The number which is posted on the automobile service station pump is not a true octane number. It is what is called an "antiknock index" number (AKI). This number is the average of two octane numbers arrived at by two different kinds of tests. One is called ASTM Research Method and is often abbreviated R or RON. The other is the ASTM Motor Method, M or MON. The antiknock index number on the pump is then this average, or R + M divided by 2 = AKI. A rule of thumb is that the Motor Method octane number (MON) is approximately five points less than the AKI. The significance of the MON is that this is identical to the octane number for aviation gasoline.



Vapor lock is a problem to consider regardless of what kind of fuel is being used. When using automobile gasoline, vapor lock is an important consideration because automobile gasoline has been designed to facilitate engines starting in the winter time and thus has a higher volatility.



There are other important considerations such as the effect of high ambient temperatures, very high engine operating temperatures under conditions of takeoff with high volatility fuel, and the complexity of the fuel system (many bends and fittings). All of these factors and many more effect the likelihood for vapor lock. Another area of concern is high altitude vapor lock.



Automobile gasoline volatility has been generally higher than aviation gasoline volatility. If critical operating conditions, as mentioned, reach extremes, vapor lock can occur earlier with automobile gasoline than with aviation gasoline. Operation conditions that encourage the formation of vapor in aviation or automobile gasoline are those which raise the under-cowl temperatures to extremes and provide a source for the transfer of excessive heat into the fuel lines. After any prolonged period of heat soak (e.g., hot day ground idling or engine restart a short time after a long period of engine operation), perform full power check before taking off. Ensure recommended fuel pressure is indicated on aircraft so equipped. Follow this precaution also with aviation gasoline.



At the present time, in most US metropolitan regions, the EPA limits the volatility of automobile gasoline to about the same as 100LL aviation gasoline. In California as of June 1, 1996, regular automobile gasoline, with the exception of gasoline that has alcohol, is for all practical purposes identical to 80 Grade aviation gasoline. Future automobile gasoline changes to meet EPA requirements find both aviation gasoline and automobile gasoline approaching identical characteristics with the exception of meeting the 100 octane rating. Oxygenates required in these urban areas are primarily Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) and ethanol alcohol. Alcohol additives, other than some de-icing fluids, are not approved by the FAA.



Oxygenates include a broad range of alcohol's and ethers. While there are several alcohol's and ethers that are being used in unleaded gasoline, two such components, Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) and ethanol have seen significant level of commercial use. Another ether used is Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (ETBE) and it to has been tested by EAA and approved by the FAA. All alcohol's and ethers add oxygen to the gasoline.



MTBE is manufactured by the chemical reaction of methanol and isobutylene. It has been a blending agent in gasoline to raise the octane number for over 20 years. The conversion of methanol to MTBE eliminates the unfavorable characteristics associated with alcohol's, such as materials compatibility problems, water tolerance and corrosive action. More recently, MTBE has been classified as an oxygenate by the EPA.



Here in California MTBE was found to pollute the ground water and cause cancer. I would like to thank Senator Barbara Boxer for forcing MTBE on all California’s driving up the price of unleaded gas in the San Francisco to $2.35 a gallon this morning. Thank you again Ms. Boxer for polluting my drinking water.



MTBE eats the rubber fuel hose up big time. Lowers gas mileage and clogs up my fuel systems. Thanks again Ms. Boxer it costs me extra money to fix it. As you may of noticed I LOVE Ms. Boxer for screwing all of us California’s. Did I mention she changed the laws to allow an Indian gaming club because they gave her tons of money. The best senator money can buy!!! Sorry I get carried away when talking about money grabbing politicians with a power problem.



Back to auto gas. Ethanol is often confused with methanol. These two alcohol's have distinctly different characteristics; however, all STC's prohibit the use of gasoline containing alcohol - either methanol or ethanol.



Known Problems:



Alcohol attacks some seal materials and varnishes on cork floats of fuel level indicators. This could cause leakage of seals and release particles of varnish from floats, causing blocked screens in fuel lines or blocked carburetor jets. Excessive entrained water carried by alcohol could lead to fuel lines blockage or blockage at screens or valves when operating at low ambient temperatures at ground level or at high altitude. Fuel volatility is also increased with the addition of alcohol in a manner that is not detected by the Reid Vapor Pressure test which is used to determine if a fuel meets the automotive specification. For example, a gasoline with alcohol will meet the Reid Vapor Pressure limit of 13.5 psi but it will behave as though it has a volatility of roughly 20 psi. Gasoline's with alcohol will also phase separate. Phase separation occurs as the gasoline/alcohol blend cools, such as when a plane climbs to a higher altitude. When water that is absorbed in the fuel by the alcohol comes out of solution, it takes most of the alcohol with it. The quantity that comes out of solution cannot be handled by the sediment bowl and tank sumps. Furthermore, if the alcohol is used to raise the octane of the base gasoline, the gasoline that remains will not have sufficient octane to prevent detonation. A good reference for this phase separation problem is: Paul Corp., Laboratory Investigations into the Effect of Adding Alcohol to Turbine Fuel, DOT/FAA/CT-TN88/25 July, 1988, FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City International Airport, NJ 08405.

Stache
 
WOW...great post, takes me back to my organic chemistry days :confused:.

It looks like there is a lot of things to consider when changing over to auto fuel. How would you make sure the gas pump would have the proper fuel for your plane? For some reason I don't think the attendent would have any idea what kind of blend they have.
 
N2212R said:
Just a question on that. Why would an airframe matter? An A4K is an A4K is it not? Not sure why you would need an STC for an airframe on something like fuel.

Airframe issues include the tank sealants or bladders, hoses, etc.; and whether or not those items are compatible with auto fuel.
 
Iceman said:
It looks like there is a lot of things to consider when changing over to auto fuel.

It's not as bad as you might think. At least on the consumer's part. Petersen and EAA have already done the considering. Either the airframe/engine combination is approved or it isn't.

How would you make sure the gas pump would have the proper fuel for your plane?

Well, that is part of the STC paperwork. Use whatever the paperwork says to use. The one thing you can't do is make sure that someone didn't make a mistake and dump a load of lower octane stuff in the premium tank. But that is only an issue if you need to use the higher octane gas.

The other thing you have to check for is alcohol. That is a pretty easy test with a clear pop bottle and an inch or so of water in it.

For some reason I don't think the attendent would have any idea what kind of blend they have.

That's very true, but it really isn't his responsibility. But for what it's worth, as long as the blend is appropriate for the season, it doesn't seem to matter that much. The problem comes when you store gas and use summer blend in the winter. Or is it winter blend in the summer? I can't remember which.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
The problem comes when you store gas and use summer blend in the winter. Or is it winter blend in the summer? I can't remember which.

The latter. High volatility and high temps = vapor lock.
 
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