ATP SafetyPilot

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Captain, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    7,980
    Location:
    NOYB
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    First Officer
    What's the minimum amount of time you could have at ATP check ride if you maxed out your SafetyPilot time?

    You need some instrument time so you couldn't be SP for that...and you need to be current, so no SP for that...but could you get you ATP with like 10 hours of actually flying?
     
  2. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    10 hrs ab initio no way. What is your beginning reference? I'm not going to work it out, but from ab initio, I would think you'll have at least 120 hrs as sole manipulator. But with that you would not be able to pass an ATP ride.
     
  3. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    Well in order to get your ATP you need to have a commercial and an instrument rating. In order to get a commercial you have to have a private. Already know for the private you need 3 hours cross country training, 3 hours instrument training, 3 hours in prep for the practical test, and 10 hours of solo...So no...
     
  4. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    7,980
    Location:
    NOYB
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    First Officer
    All except solo can be SP, no? Okay...PPL is 40 (no SP). By from then on SP hours can go WAY up, right?

    Maybe ATP with 60 to 100 flying hours and the rest as Safety Pilot?
     
  5. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    40 for the Private
    20 for commercial training
    5 night solo
    ATP is gonna require at least 75 hours instrument.

    Besides that, I guess you could. Would love to sit in on the checkrides...
     
  6. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    :yeahthat:
     
  7. \__[Ô]__/

    \__[Ô]__/ Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Ames, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    david
    You need 500 hours of XC time. I'm not sure you can get that through safety pilot time.
     
  8. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    SIC counts doesn't it?
     
  9. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Uhh, safety pilot on a flight over 50nm :dunno:
     
  10. \__[Ô]__/

    \__[Ô]__/ Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Ames, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    david
    Might be different for the ATP XC since the XC rules are different, but you can't log XC toward commercial or instrument when you're the safety pilot.
     
  11. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Huh, where does it say this?
     
  12. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,986
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Chief Counsel says the person logging the XC time has to be a required crewmember for the entirety of the flight and has to perform the landing.

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...009/gebhart - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

    "Section 61.65(d) contemplates that only the pilot conducting the entire flight, including the takeoff, landing, and enroute flight as a required crewmember may log cross-country flight time."

    I think MacPherson's interpretation is bunk--the regulation doesn't say what she says that it says--but we've had this discussion before.

    http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65707
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  13. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    I tried finding a reference to support this but can't find any.
     
  14. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,792
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    It seems to be a well recited thing that only one of the pilots may log XC since you don't get the landings. Additionally you didn' fly the 50 NM since the other pilot was manipulating the controls . Dont know if it true but it's just how I have always heard it.


    Edit : ^ beat me to it
     
  15. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    SP is required when the other guy s under the hood, so you would have to do at least the last .1 as PIC for the landings, so if you do 250 2hr cross countries, that's 25hrs PIC sole manipulator.
     
  16. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,792
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    So you could do 5000 1 hr cross countries to get the 500 XC required ?
     
  17. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,986
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Your statement is not congruent with the source.
     
  18. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    But then again you didn't do the navigating like in the interpretation. The PIC flying the plane did that.
     
  19. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Is it in the FAR?

    I...have a friend... who counted a some safety pilot time (clearly marked in the log book) as both XC and hood for both the IFR and CPL and the ATP, though by the time he took the ATP he was well over and didn't need the old safety pilot time.

    Log book has been through 3 DPEs and 1 fed (CFI ride), no one said jack...from what I heard.
     
  20. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    Just cause they overlooked it doesn't mean it is right.
     
  21. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    I didn't say it was optimal, just manages the legal. Hell, ALLATPS use to send Seminoles out with 3 people logging Multi PIC, ME/instrument student in the left seat under the hood, ME/CFI student acting as SP in the right, MEI in the back seat providing instruction to the CP/SP in the right seat.:lol:
     
  22. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    Is a commercial a prerequisite to the ATP? Couldn't you have a bunch of PPL hours and take an ATP ride assuming all the requirements are met?
     
  23. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Personally, if it's done right and both are active, not some dude day dreaming and the other flying, I don't really have a problem with it.

    Now the ATP Inc. 3 dudes in a Seminole is another story :no:


    Ether way, if it's not in the FAR...
     
  24. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    There is a military cross over exception, but otherwise CPL is a prerequisite.
     
  25. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    Military guys still need to have a commercial, but only have to take a quci written test to get it and the instrument rating.
     
  26. \__[Ô]__/

    \__[Ô]__/ Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Ames, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    david
    See link to interpretation above for XC rule.

    I assume there are lots of people with similar logbook issues. I think before the 2009 interpretation, everyone assumed it was obvious you could count it as XC. Still, lots of people assume it counts. Could be the DPEs and feds didn't know/care about the interpretation.

    Or maybe they didn't bother to look closely? I've been through 7(?) DPEs and feds. Apart from checking that I had the proper endorsements, the only the time someone looked through my logbook in any detail was for a private ride.
     
  27. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Is that how they work it? I remember a buddy got out and he went straight to a ATP from the FAA, I didn't know all the details but I know he only took one ride.
     
  28. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If it's not in the FAR it's not a logbook issue IMO.
     
  29. \__[Ô]__/

    \__[Ô]__/ Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Ames, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    david
    Fair enough. But if anyone's going to get tripped up by that legal interpretation on an ATP ride, it's probably the guy who shows up with 100 hours of actually flying a plane and 1400 hours of safety pilot time. That's odd enough to get people asking questions and looking into whether that's even possible.
     
  30. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,067
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gucci Pilot
    Yeah you'd still only take one ride. But have to take the Military Competency written to get the commercial single/multi instrument.
     
  31. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,481
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    It would certainly cause people to ask you some interesting questions, but it is possible to have the right answers. The real problem at 100hrs of manipulation time in 1500hrs is you won't have the skills required to pass the ride.