ATC: You WILL land here...

MachFly

MachFly

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MachFly
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
 

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The PIC of the aircraft is PIC!
They land where they want.
Now there may be consequences of the PIC's actions, but as the old saying goes:
You fly the aircraft, NOT atc.
 
MachFly said:
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
Click to expand...
"Tower, you do not have the authority to tell me where to land. In fact, I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a hijacking. I'll be squawking 7500 unless you release me on my way. Cessna 738XD."
 
Oh...also:

"Tower, will you be paying for the instructor that you are mandating for me?"
 
markb5900 said:
The PIC of the aircraft is PIC!
They land where they want.
Now there may be consequences of the PIC's actions, but as the old saying goes:
You fly the aircraft, NOT atc.
Click to expand...

That's what I would do. If I screwed up somewhere that ATC gives me a phone number I might as well get to my destination first.



SkyHog said:
"Tower, you do not have the authority to tell me where to land. In fact, I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a hijacking. I'll be squawking 7500 unless you release me on my way. Cessna 738XD."
Click to expand...
SkyHog said:
Oh...also:

"Tower, will you be paying for the instructor that you are mandating for me?"
Click to expand...


:rofl:
 
Or even:

"Unable." to everything he says.

edit: To be clear, to acknowledge that ATC can force you to land is to acknowledge that ATC is in a position of authority over a pilot. I don't believe that is an accurate statement. We don't need ATC, they need us.
 
MachFly said:
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
Click to expand...

It's a Delta so the tower doesn't own the airspace...
 
I think ATC over stepped their bounds here. She had a pilot deviation. Fine, give her the phone number and let her go on her way and ruin some other controllers day. Maybe he thought she was so reckless she'd be a threat to national security?? :dunno:
 
This pilot was greatly mis-treated. From what I could hear she followed the instructions given to her. Certainly english was not probably her first language. Can you imagine being in her shoes, you've been told to land somewhere you didn't want to, that your a hazard to aviation and that you will be required to leave with a CFI on board and then the ground guy gives here a ration. I would guess by the time she was handed off to ground that she was a complete wreck.

Shame on this ATC team for handling this as they did.
 
Velocity173 said:
Negative. The class D is owned by the tower and they have responsibility for separating VFR aircraft in the confines of their airspace.
Click to expand...

Nope. Separation services are not required to be provided. Some deltas don't even have radar. Gotta go to a charlie or bravo for that.
 
MachFly said:
Hmm, didn't know that. What if it's a delta that's in the middle of nowhere? In that case does it belong to center?
Click to expand...

Some Deltas have an approach, CPR & CYS are examples that I'm familiar with. Others such as Salina KS work with center as far as I know.
 
Clark1961 said:
Nope. Separation services are not required to be provided. Some deltas don't even have radar. Gotta go to a charlie or bravo for that.
Click to expand...

Tower can be delegated separation responsibilty from approach to separate SVFR from IFR or even IFR from IFR (visual sep LOA). In this case that's what it sounds like. She had to climb immediately probably because she didn't comply with a vector or altitude assignment from local. It's still the towers airspace as you can hear the local controller issuing vectors to the aircraft. PHX Appoach has responsibility overlying the class D. If PHX had any transitions they would have to coordinate with Gateway TWR to go through their airspace.
 
Last edited:
My thoughts:

1) The tower dude was understandably exasperated, but I think the right thing to do would have been to help her out more than he did, and not make her land at an unfamiliar field that she didn't plan to go to, on top of the helmet fire that she was obviously already having.

2) I lol'd at the ground controller admonishing her for taxiing at an unfamiliar field without an instructor. First, she is a certificated pilot; second, she had no intention of landing there so how can he blame her; third, I can't count the number of unfamiliar fields I have landed a single seat aircraft at without an instructor. Yes I've made a fool out of myself in the past at night, taxiing around unfamiliar places, but I can hardly imagine the scenario (all other things being equal) where that would truly be dangerous. You can stop. At any time. And then ask for instructions/progressive. WTF over?

3) How do people like this get PPL's? I saw MUCH worse than her among the Japanese students at a 141 program that was based at the airport I worked at/flew from while in college. This kind of thing was like an hourly occurrence. Almost all of them had PPL's and were working on CMEL's, IR tickets, and CFI's. I want to get a job as the dude they pay off to certify these clowns :) (ok not really, but that examiner must have vacation homes on every continent with Ferraris in every garage).
 
Velocity173 said:
Tower can be delegated separation responsibilty from approach to separate VFR from IFR. In this case that's what it sounds like. She had to climb immediately probably because she didn't comply with a vector or altitude assignment from approach. It's still the towers airspace as you can here the local controller issuing vectors to the aircraft. PHX Appoach has responsibility overlying the class D. If PHX had any transitions they would have to coordinate with Gateway TWR to go through their airspace.
Click to expand...

I suspect you'll be surprised at who actually owns the airspace. Yup, they all cooperate but dig deep enough...the only responsibility a delta tower has is separation on the runway. Yup, they tell us what to do and we generally cooperate but in the end, we are responsible for separation in the delta. Don't ever act otherwise. One hint is that you're never cleared into the delta except by approach or center.
 
MachFly said:
Found a recording on liveATC (attached) where the pilot wanted to depart the airspace and go to an airport that was 10nm north. Instead tower said that he does not like what she's doing (don't know what she was doing, can't tell from the recording) and told her to land.
I never heard that tower could make you land, can they really do that or is it just this guy?
Doesn't sound like she busted someone's airspace or TFR.
Click to expand...

Sounds bogus.
 
35 AoA said:
My thoughts:

2) I lol'd at the ground controller admonishing her for taxiing at an unfamiliar field without an instructor. First, she is a certificated pilot; second, she had no intention of landing there so how can he blame her; third, I can't count the number of unfamiliar fields I have landed a single seat aircraft at without an instructor. Yes I've made a fool out of myself in the past at night, taxiing around unfamiliar places, but I can hardly imagine the scenario (all other things being equal) where that would truly be dangerous. You can stop. At any time. And then ask for instructions/progressive. WTF over?
Click to expand...

Agree the ground controller was a bit over the top. Of course an early "unfamiliar" has yet to generate a lot of help from the controllers. Heck, I tell them that while I'm still in the air if it seems relevant...it sure helped in Houston when I was VFR into Ellington from the NE. I'd been in there previously IFR from the north west but didn't see much until right over the field...nothing at all wrong with telling the guys that work in dark rooms what your status is, they'll generally help out. Quite a few of them are pilots and know what we're dealing with.
 
MachFly said:
Hmm, didn't know that. What if it's a delta that's in the middle of nowhere? In that case does it belong to center?
Click to expand...

Non-approach control towers, aka VFR towers, don't "own" the airspace. The controlled airspace belongs to whatever facility is responsible for IFR operations, could be center or approach.
 
roncachamp said:
Phoenix approach, although some functions have likely been delegated to the tower.
Click to expand...

You obviously know much better than I.

Question is, how are we pilots supposed to know who owns the airspace 'cause it does make a difference.
 
Clark1961 said:
I suspect you'll be surprised at who actually owns the airspace. Yup, they all cooperate but dig deep enough...the only responsibility a delta tower has is separation on the runway. Yup, they tell us what to do and we generally cooperate but in the end, we are responsible for separation in the delta. Don't ever act otherwise. One hint is that you're never cleared into the delta except by approach or center.
Click to expand...

Correct. If I'm headed for a Delta and I call xyz tower Cessna 1234 and hear Cessna 1234 come back that's all I need to continue on. There is definitely a fine line and if you entered the pattern and landed I'm not actually sure what would happen.
 
Clark1961 said:
I suspect you'll be surprised at who actually owns the airspace. Yup, they all cooperate but dig deep enough...the only responsibility a delta tower has is separation on the runway. Yup, they tell us what to do and we generally cooperate but in the end, we are responsible for separation in the delta. Don't ever act otherwise. One hint is that you're never cleared into the delta except by approach or center.
Click to expand...

Well I suspect the tax payers own the Delta.:wink2: Correct, basic separation they have control over the runway and those of us that are VFR maintain our own separation in the air. That still doesn't allow a pilot to deviate from control instruction in the air just because it's a Delta. Also like I said, a lot of facilities like the one I worked at had LOAs that allowed the tower to use visual separation with IFR arrivals and departures. I've never been cleared into a Delta because only two way communications are required.
 
Velocity173 said:
Negative. The class D is owned by the tower and they have responsibility for separating VFR aircraft in the confines of their airspace.
Click to expand...

That's not correct. The Class D airspace is owned by the facility responsible for IFR operations. ATC does not separate VFR traffic in Class D airspace.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I suspect the tax payers own the Delta.:wink2: Correct, basic separation they have control over the runway and those of us that are VFR maintain our own separation in the air. That still doesn't allow a pilot to deviate from control instruction in the air just because it's a Delta. Also like I said, a lot of facilities like the one I worked at had LOAs that allowed the tower to use visual separation with IFR arrivals and departures. I've never been cleared into a Delta because only two way communications are required.
Click to expand...

I've been cleared through a delta by approach.
 
roncachamp said:
That's not correct. The Class D airspace is owned by the facility responsible for IFR operations. ATC does not separate VFR traffic in Class D airspace.
Click to expand...

Obviously. Notice correction above.
 
roncachamp said:
Non-approach control towers, aka VFR towers, don't "own" the airspace. The controlled airspace belongs to whatever facility is responsible for IFR operations, could be center or approach.
Click to expand...

Roger. That makes sense.
 
Velocity173 said:
Tower can be delegated separation responsibilty from approach to separate VFR from IFR or even IFR from IFR (visual sep LOA). In this case that's what it sounds like. She had to climb immediately probably because she didn't comply with a vector or altitude assignment from local. It's still the towers airspace as you can hear the local controller issuing vectors to the aircraft. PHX Appoach has responsibility overlying the class D. If PHX had any transitions they would have to coordinate with Gateway TWR to go through their airspace.
Click to expand...

ATC does not separate VFR from IFR in Class D airspace.
 
Clark1961 said:
I've been cleared through a delta by approach.
Click to expand...

Yes that's a transition approval once approach has gotten approval from tower. It's not a clearance like a Class B clearance.
 
roncachamp said:
ATC does not separate VFR from IFR in Class D airspace.
Click to expand...

Steven, that brings my question mind. Let's say I intend to land at xyz airport, a "D" airport. I make a call to xyz tower and they repsond with my tail number. I then cruise on in and land without any further contact making sure to maintain separation while in the air and not interfering with any other inbound traffic. What would happen once I'm on the ground?
 
roncachamp said:
ATC does not separate VFR from IFR in Class D airspace.
Click to expand...

Agreed Steven you got me.:redface: At first glance I though this case was inside a Bravo but it appears to be a Delta outside the Bravo. Not sure about how approach owns tower's airspace in this case though. Would not approach have to coordinated with tower for anything transitioning the Delta??
 
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