Assault with... Now a Cough!

K

KennyFlys

Guest
Ya can't make this stuff up!

Nasty cough, nasty run-in with the law

Webster's dictionary says that to cough means to expel air suddenly and noisily from the lungs through the glottis, either as the result of an involuntary muscular spasm in the throat or to clear the air passages. A Wake County judge will decide the intent behind Kauffman's cough.
He could be charged with "Coughing with intent..." Good grief!

Maybe he should have thrown some salt over his shoulder and out the window. :rolleyes:
 
Ya can't make this stuff up!

Nasty cough, nasty run-in with the law


He could be charged with "Coughing with intent..." Good grief!

Maybe he should have thrown some salt over his shoulder and out the window. :rolleyes:

Hmm. That's certainly interesting - and it depends entirely on the circumstances. And if it goes to trial, it will come down to the parties' credibility.
 
Oh good god. Did we ever hear what happened with the "Assault with Salt" case?
 
Hmm. That's certainly interesting - and it depends entirely on the circumstances. And if it goes to trial, it will come down to the parties' credibility.
Hmmm... An accountant vs. a police officer who is alleged to have "cuffed him and threw him into the side of the patrol car, [so that] he ended up on the ground." Should be interesting.
 
Hmmm... An accountant vs. a police officer who is alleged to have "cuffed him and threw him into the side of the patrol car, [so that] he ended up on the ground." Should be interesting.
Given the patent irrationality I saw as a cop, the guy being an "accountant" has little to do with anything. And the story about him ending up on the ground, well you know, if he did end up on the ground, maybe it was the cop, maybe it was melodrama. The guy seems to be a fan of melodrama, so far.

And hell yes, if I gave someone a ticket and they looked me in the eye and coughed directly in my face - I would see that as not a bit different than spitting on me, which happens to be a felony in NC!
 
Given the patent irrationality I saw as a cop, the guy being an "accountant" has little to do with anything. And the story about him ending up on the ground, well you know, if he did end up on the ground, maybe it was the cop, maybe it was melodrama. The guy seems to be a fan of melodrama, so far.

And hell yes, if I gave someone a ticket and they looked me in the eye and coughed directly in my face - I would see that as not a bit different than spitting on me, which happens to be a felony in NC!

I dunno. Somehow I don't think coughing would be the first idea in my mind if I was ticked off at a police officer. Methinks the dash cam will come in handy to determine this case, if it reveals good footage.

In the end though, a citizen being a douchebag doesn't entitle a cop to be a douchebag as well. Gotta maintain standards, and that's all I'll say on the topic so this doesn't get SZ'd
 
if arresting someone for spitting or coughing intentionally in your face is "being a douchebag", then something is mighty damn wrong. If it happened the way the cop said, it was an appropriate arrest. And I've seen too many bald-faced lies in police brutality complaints to take 'em at face value.
 
if arresting someone for spitting or coughing intentionally in your face is "being a douchebag", then something is mighty damn wrong. If it happened the way the cop said, it was an appropriate arrest. And I've seen too many bald-faced lies in police brutality complaints to take 'em at face value.
Note that I'm not taking anything at face value, which is why I said "allegedly" above. (Okay, I accept the professions of the two people involved and that there was a traffic stop :)). As I said, it should be interesting. I'm not sure how useful a dash camera will be, though. Seems that the angle wouldn't be quite right. We'll see!
 
One of the more amusing paragraphs in a news article I've read in a while. What next, my dog ate my homework, and the check is in the mail?
Kauffman, an accountant for Accountemps in Chapel Hill, said he developed a cough after his dog, Blair, died of kidney failure last week. He said he was still stricken Tuesday but went to work because he needed the cash.

BTW assault/resisting an officer = placed on the ground. Less chance of anyone getting hurt that way.
 
This will be interesting to watch. If the guy's found guilty, then obviously the officer was reasonable to put the guy on the ground (and I enjoy seeing such results when they're warranted - nobody likes a smart*ss).

On the other hand, if he's found not-guilty, or if the case is dismissed for lack of probable cause to arrest (ie, at motions) then I expect we'll see a lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. Heck, might even be charges against the officer for assault if it really was an accident and there was no probable cause for arrest.

That's a highly fact-specific determination and there's no point in even speculating on it at this point.

What's interesting is that in many states, spitting/coughint/etc. on a cop while you're in custody (or in a jail) is a felony. So if you're ever arrested, don't spit on the officer. Felony means DOC.
 
By what little is available now, it appears to be an involuntary response. Heck, I can't count the times I've gone into an involuntary, violent cough that gave me a headache. Even most coughs are involuntary. You're at your body's mercy.

If the cop was that far away (four feet according to the article) then the cop's actions seem overreacting. We'll see.
 
Oh good god. Did we ever hear what happened with the "Assault with Salt" case?
The actual charge was misdemeanor reckless conduct. Anyway, a judge denied a motion to dismiss the charge. I have not seen any indication of the results of the lab test on the remains of the burger.

Incidentally, the Big N Tasty hamburger in question in that case was free. All of the cops' meals were free at that restaurant.
 
Incidentally, the Big N Tasty hamburger in question in that case was free. All of the cops' meals were free at that restaurant.
That has NOTHING to do with it, Ken - it's free so they can do anything they want to it??
 
Kauffman, an accountant for Accountemps in Chapel Hill, said he developed a cough after his dog, Blair, died of kidney failure last week. He said he was still stricken Tuesday but went to work because he needed the cash.
I agree that this makes me wonder, BIG TIME. Something about this guy sounds mighty strange to me!!

And you know, four feet is really just a bit more than arm's reach away - if the guy was INTENDING to do this, TRYING to do it, then four feet is not far enough away to render it harmless!
 
That has NOTHING to do with it, Ken - it's free so they can do anything they want to it??
I'm not implying that at all. Because it was free he should not have had any problem asking for something else if there was something wrong with what he got the first time. I know/have known lots of people who would choke down whatever's put in front of them because they're too broke or too cheap or whatever to waste the food they already have. I don't know of any restaurant that won't trade out your food if there's something wrong with it. This whole deal smacks of "there's more to the story ..."
 
I shudder at the thought of how much human saliva I have inevitably "choked down" over the years that didn't belong to me. At least when they spit or cough in your face you are aware of it and can be tested.

Ditto.. not to mention being bitten by someone claiming to have had AIDS. Ultimately we found out they didn't have it, but talk about a nervous few months of testing!

I've interviewed suspects who worked in fast food joints who admitted to "tampering" with an officers food. It'll make you think twice about eating out on duty!

As far as the arrest/charge in the story. IF the cough was an intentional effort to infect the officer or to at the very minimum shower him with saliva and lord knows what else, I can see the arrest and charge being valid. If it was just a case of violation of the POP ordinance (LEO's should know what that is :) ) it might have been out of line. Time will tell.
 
I'm not implying that at all. Because it was free he should not have had any problem asking for something else if there was something wrong with what he got the first time. I know/have known lots of people who would choke down whatever's put in front of them because they're too broke or too cheap or whatever to waste the food they already have. I don't know of any restaurant that won't trade out your food if there's something wrong with it. This whole deal smacks of "there's more to the story ..."
The difference is that it's the RESTAURANT that does the free food offer, and it's the EMPLOYEES that are "preparing" the food. It's one thing to have an overly cooked hamburger. It's another thing to get a hamburger that's got so much salt on it that it makes you physically ill. Huge difference.
 
I have a hard enough time avoiding getting pulled over. The last thing I'd do is give the cop a reason to kick my ass. I'm willing to bet this guy gave him a good reason.

My last drive to Oklahoma--I get pulled over on I-135 somewhere in Kansas. I was *not* speeding at all. Cruise was on exactly 70 mph. It's about 10pm. The cop walks up and asks for my drivers license and proof of insurance like always. He goes back to his car and sits there until another cop pulls up. At this point -- both of them walk up. They inform me that I am suspicious because I have out of state plates (still Minnesota). The reason they pulled me over was because a lot of drugs gets ran through the area from out of state. Followed by the standard "could you please step outside of the vehicle".

At this point--I'm thinking "oh ****"--here I am with these two damn small town cops playing big bad cop on the interstate. They were not troopers nor where they deputies. The times that I have been stopped by a trooper--have been nothing but business. They give me a legit reason for pulling me over and write me a ticket. 5 minutes later I'm on my way. These guys..were not like that..

They tell me they will need to search my vehicle. Not much I can do to stop them. You can't really argue and expect to get anywhere.

The one cop stands there with me while the other one proceeds to spend way too much time searching every possible spot in the car. Under the hood-- in the trunk--all around the place. Through all my bags. Etc. I couldn't help but think about Dr. Bruce's story. I also couldn't help but think about what he could find that he could possibly say was bad. Luckily--he didn't produce anything--not that I have anything worth producing. I was then sent on my way.

My step dad is a police officer and I grew up with them my entire life. I know that the majority of them are pretty good people. But I have heard the stories from them about the local cops that aren't really that great of people. These guys were a good example of the power hungry new cops hoping to find them something to brag about with no regard for the law. Although that statement may be unfair--I'm not familiar with the laws in the state of Kansas..but I suspect the above was questionable.
 
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ive always gotten lucky with cops. only warnings so far. i think 3 of them, 2 verbal, one written (for 14 mph over when a ticket wouldve cost me my license, age 16, whew!)
 
I just remember that Police Officers are people too. Some good, some bad. Showing proper respect is generally a Good Thing, whether they're good or bad. Self preservation!
 
They inform me that I am suspicious because I have out of state plates (still Minnesota). The reason they pulled me over was because a lot of drugs gets ran through the area from out of state. Followed by the standard "could you please step outside of the vehicle".

They tell me they will need to search my vehicle. Not much I can do to stop them. You can't really argue and expect to get anywhere.
That was IT? They pull you over and then tell you they need to search your vehicle??

Congratulations! You are the winner of a patently illegal search!
 
They tell me they will need to search my vehicle. Not much I can do to stop them. You can't really argue and expect to get anywhere.


I would think, minus probable cause, they can not just tell you they are going to search your car. Unless there some law specific to that state I'm not aware of. It's a common tactic here (and not just here) to ask a person who you have reason to believe (not probable cause, just suspicion) may be carrying contraband, if you can search their car. If they say yes, search away, if they say no, you don't search unless you develop probable cause, get a warrant, or it's incident to arrest. In years past, I've asked a lot of people if I could search their car. Some say no, and without any other probable cause, they go on their merry way without the car being searched. I was always amazed at how many would say yes, knowing there was contraband in the car that I was likely to find. Most departments here are now getting a driver to sign a consent to search form which advises them of their right to refuse or terminate the search at any time.
 
I would think, minus probable cause, they can not just tell you they are going to search your car. Unless there some law specific to that state I'm not aware of. It's a common tactic here (and not just here) to ask a person who you have reason to believe (not probable cause, just suspicion) may be carrying contraband, if you can search their car. If they say yes, search away, if they say no, you don't search unless you develop probable cause, get a warrant, or it's incident to arrest. In years past, I've asked a lot of people if I could search their car. Some say no, and without any other probable cause, they go on their merry way without the car being searched. I was always amazed at how many would say yes, knowing there was contraband in the car that I was likely to find. Most departments here are now getting a driver to sign a consent to search form which advises them of their right to refuse or terminate the search at any time.
I think the fear of much of the public is that, if they say no, they're going to be subjected to some sort of negative consequence for having denied permission, be it being forced to stand, waiting beside the road in public view for an hour or two while they conduct a background check or being subjected to verbal intimidation. People with nothing to hide will agree bust so they can be on their way, nevermind that there was no probable cause. People with things to hide will acquiesce in the hope that the officer will miss the contraband and in the fear that they will appear guilty for exercising their rights. Unfortunately, due to public perception and the actions of a small minority of officers, the police have lost much of the public trust they used to enjoy. Of course, the entire public landscape has changed around them, too!:(

To be honest, I don't know how I'd react were I in Jesse's shoes. It was certainly the most expeditious route, yet I can't help but feel that a little bit of our rights as a society were just whittled away.:dunno:
 
I have a hard enough time avoiding getting pulled over. The last thing I'd do is give the cop a reason to kick my ass. I'm willing to bet this guy gave him a good reason.

My last drive to Oklahoma--I get pulled over on I-135 somewhere in Kansas. I was *not* speeding at all. Cruise was on exactly 70 mph. It's about 10pm. The cop walks up and asks for my drivers license and proof of insurance like always. He goes back to his car and sits there until another cop pulls up. At this point -- both of them walk up. They inform me that I am suspicious because I have out of state plates (still Minnesota). The reason they pulled me over was because a lot of drugs gets ran through the area from out of state. Followed by the standard "could you please step outside of the vehicle".

At this point--I'm thinking "oh ****"--here I am with these two damn small town cops playing big bad cop on the interstate. They were not troopers nor where they deputies. The times that I have been stopped by a trooper--have been nothing but business. They give me a legit reason for pulling me over and write me a ticket. 5 minutes later I'm on my way. These guys..were not like that..

They tell me they will need to search my vehicle. Not much I can do to stop them. You can't really argue and expect to get anywhere.

The hell you can't. You tell them no. And then if they do it anyway, you talk to: 1) their CO; 2) the town mayor or county commissioner; 3) the governor; and 4) your own lawyer.

That's a patently illegal stop, and if it's even possible for the search to be more illegal it is - even if you did give consent, the initial stop sounds invalid, and everything thereafter is therefore invalid. I'm sorry you had to deal with it.

The one cop stands there with me while the other one proceeds to spend way too much time searching every possible spot in the car. Under the hood-- in the trunk--all around the place. Through all my bags. Etc. I couldn't help but think about Dr. Bruce's story. I also couldn't help but think about what he could find that he could possibly say was bad. Luckily--he didn't produce anything--not that I have anything worth producing. I was then sent on my way.

Unfortunately, that's when you start wondering if something is about to be "manufactured," i.e., planted.

My step dad is a police officer and I grew up with them my entire life. I know that the majority of them are pretty good people. But I have heard the stories from them about the local cops that aren't really that great of people. These guys were a good example of the power hungry new cops hoping to find them something to brag about with no regard for the law. Although that statement may be unfair--I'm not familiar with the laws in the state of Kansas..but I suspect the above was questionable.

That's not just questionable - it's illegal. It sounds like those doofuses admitted to an illegal stop. Simply having out-of-state tags is NEVER EVER enough for a stop, and that's one of the few things I'm willing to say is written in stone.

Almost all the cops I know are great people. In fact, I've only ever met two that I didn't trust. With that being said, that doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. But there is a BIG difference between an honest mistake and a flagrant abuse of power. Unless there's something going on that we don't know about (like there was a warrant out for your arrest or your tags were expired), this was the latter.
 
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I would think, minus probable cause, they can not just tell you they are going to search your car. Unless there some law specific to that state I'm not aware of. It's a common tactic here (and not just here) to ask a person who you have reason to believe (not probable cause, just suspicion) may be carrying contraband, if you can search their car. If they say yes, search away, if they say no, you don't search unless you develop probable cause, get a warrant, or it's incident to arrest. In years past, I've asked a lot of people if I could search their car. Some say no, and without any other probable cause, they go on their merry way without the car being searched. I was always amazed at how many would say yes, knowing there was contraband in the car that I was likely to find. Most departments here are now getting a driver to sign a consent to search form which advises them of their right to refuse or terminate the search at any time.

Your analysis is right on.

It has consistently shocked me how many people smuggling drugs who are stopped for speeding say "yeah, sure, I ain't got nothin', go ahead and search." And then there's $200K worth of coke in the car.

Having the consent form signed is a great idea - in the same fashion as the Miranda consent form, it takes a lot of issues out of the analysis later.

As far as I'm concerned, it's good police work to ask for the search when you've got the alarm bells are going off, but don't have the PC. If somebody says yes, it's their own fault for not knowing their rights.
 
That was IT? They pull you over and then tell you they need to search your vehicle??

Congratulations! You are the winner of a patently illegal search!
I agree. Given Jesse's description of events, it was not a constitutionally protected search. But, if you decline when there's nothing to hide but take up your time when you'd rather be on your way... how easily do you open yourself up to other interrogation?

Unfortunately, there are some cowboy cops out there in the rural areas where you're pretty much at their mercy. "Is that alcohol I smell on your breath?" Even if it's false, they get to detain you for a blood test then if you decline? There are just too many loop holes for a lone individual in such a situation.

Jesse, did they ask to search or did they request to make a search?
 
Even if there is "other interrogation", they can't keep you on the side of the road indefinitely - there's a time limit, and likely it's less than the amount of time it would take for 'em to conduct that illegal search! (It's usually considered to be about 20 minutes for a routine traffic stop - after that it becomes a whole 'nother thing)
 
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