ARROW or just AROW, where is it in FARS?

John Baker

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I've found a few in 91.203 using FAR/AIM 2009. Airworthiness certificate and registration, what about operators manual and W&B?

John
 
See 91.9 and 23.1589.

Ron, thanks. 91.9 worked, that gives me three. 23.1589 is another matter. Nothing under that heading exists in FAR/AIM 2009. I went to the FAA web site for FARs and nothing came up there either. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/

What I'm looking for is the specific regulation that says you must have a weight and balance certificate in your aircraft before operating it.

Anyone know how or where to find this?

John
 
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Ron, thanks. 91.9 worked, that gives me three. 23.1589 is another matter. Nothing under that heading exists in FAR/AIM 2009.
Part 23 is the certification rules, and it's not in the standard pilot FAR/AIM. However, it does exist.
What I'm looking for is the specific regulation that says you must have a weight and balance certificate in your aircraft before operating it.

Anyone know how or where to find this?
It's derivative from a number of regulations. Here's the full story from Flight Standards as published in the FAA Aviation news about 10 years ago:
A-R-O-W ????
by H. Dean Chamberlain
FAA Aviation News, July/August 1999

Recently one of the technical representatives at the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) sent an email message to this writer asking what was the regulatory basis for the aircraft acronym "AROW." or those not familiar with the term, pilots use the term as a memory aid for remembering the documents required in most general aviation aircraft before a flight. The person had been asked by an AOPA member for the information, and although a flight instructor, the AOPA representative said he couldn't remember where to find the appropriate FAR requirement for all of the letters of the acronym. He had them all except for the "W" or the letter representing weight and balance.

A-R-O-W
For those not familiar with the acronym: "A" refers to the airworthiness certificate required to be displayed in the aircraft; "R" refers to the aircraft registration certificate required to be in the aircraft; "O" refers to the operating limitations (aircraft flight manual, pilot operating manual, placards, etc. as appropriate); and the "W" refers to weight and balance data. Some of you may remember that AROW once had two "R's" in it. The second "R" referred to radio and the required Federal Communication Commission's (FCC) radio station license. The FCC no longer requires an aircraft radio station license for radio communications transmitters in U.S. registered aircraft in domestic operations. Remember, travel to Canada and Mexico are international flights.

A-R-O-W AND THE FAR
How many of you know what is the regulatory basis for the various documents required to be onboard a general aviation aircraft operated under FAR Part 91 ?
If you are not sure, let's review the requirements. Some are obvious. Some are not so obvious. But we must point out we are only talking about those aircraft being operated under FAR Part 91 that are small, single-engine piston powered aircraft and are not being operated for hire or commercial purposes. The reason for the limited type of aircraft and operation is because certain types of aircraft and operations such as commuter or air carrier cps have their own specific rules that apply to the aircraft or flight operation. In many cases, the other aircraft and operating rules are more explicit than FAR Part 91.


Let's do the easy ones first. FAR §91.203, Civil aircraft: Certifications required, states in part that "(a) Except as provided in §91.715, no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it has within it the following: (1) An appropriate and current airworthiness certificate...." The rule then goes into detail of what meets this requirement for different types of operations and circumstances. Section (2) of the rule then states, "An effective U.S. registration certificate issued to its owner or, for operation within the United States, the second duplicate copy (pink) of the Aircraft Registration Application as provided for in §47.31(b), or a registration certificate issued under the laws of a foreign country." Then paragraph (b) of the rule states, "No person may operate a civil aircraft unless the airworthiness certificate required by paragraph (a) of this section or a special flight authorization issued under §91.715 is displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew.


The above rule makes the requirement for the airworthiness and registration documents in civil aircraft pretty cut and dried. Nothing too complicated in this rule. The rule even states where the airworthiness certificate has to be displayed. As noted, the rule only applies to civil aircraft. It does not apply to military or public aircraft.


As we said earlier, the "A" and the "R" are easy to identify. The harder ones are to come.

THE CASE OF THE MISSING "O"
The "O" is not as clearly defined as the "A" and "R" were. The "O," operating limitations, for our specified general aviation aircraft starts getting a little complicated.

WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PIC
Let's review some basic rules before we discuss the our "O" requirement. FAR §91.3, Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command, states in part, "(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."


Again, this rule is simple and pretty straight forward. The pilot in command (PIC) is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. Period.


Then §91.7, Civil aircraft airworthiness, makes two very basic and far reaching statements. It says in part, "(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition." Then it states, "(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur." This rule now makes the PIC responsible for determining if the aircraft is in an airworthy condition for a safe flight and what the pilot must do if an unairworthy condition occurs.

Keep this requirement in mind.


CIVIL AIRCRAFT FLIGHT MANUAL, MARKING, AND PLACARDS
FAR §91.9, Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements, spells out what modern aircraft must contain. The rule states in part that, "(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry"


Section (b) of §91.9 then states, "No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft-(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof. (2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof."

FLIGHT RULES: FAR §91.103PREFLIGHT ACTION
This rule says simply that "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight." This information must include(in part) "(b)(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and (2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature." This FAR section combined with the previous FAR sections details what actions a PIC is expected to comply with as part of his or her preflight actions. The rules say who is responsible for finding the information to ensure the aircraft is airworthy, where to start to find that information (such as in a flight manual or even something as simple and basic as a operating placard), and what the extent of that information should be. In other words all available information. This preflight rule even includes the first use of the concept of aircraft performance and gross weight because both are related to safely operating an aircraft and operating that aircraft within its operating limitations.


SHORT REVIEW
The preceding FAR sections established the operating requirements that cover most of the "AROW" acronym. In our response to AOPA, we even included various references to FAR Part 23, Airworthiness standards: Normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter category airplanes. AOPA responded by asking what about those aircraft that don't have FAA approved flight manuals with the necessary operating limitations listed in FAR §23.1583, Operating limitations. The required limitation data includes weight and center of gravity.

At this point we thought we had answered AOPA's question. Wrong! Nothing is simple in Washington. This was one of those times. The technical specialist responded with, "Thanks for the response. We're close, but not quite there." He went on to say, "23.1583 (c and d) establish what the manufacturer has to tell me about weight and balance in the manual, but plenty of airplanes don't have and never did have manuals. Which regulation establishes the information that I have to have in the airplane pertaining to weight and balance information?


It was back to the proverbial drawing boards, or in the case of this writer, back to the keyboard, regulations, and subject matter experts for more information.

AROW: WHAT GOES UP MUST COMEDOWN
He is correct. Many older aircraft didn't have the operating information that newer models are required to have. One of the reasons for the newer manual requirements was the lack of uniformity and information in previous aircraft operating manuals. So a new manual format was introduced to help pilots find similar operating data in specified sections of FAA approved aircraft flight manuals. Today, FAA approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals are serialized for a given aircraft and must be kept current. Many of the older aircraft may have had a generic operating manual that was not developed for a specific aircraft. It was up to the pilot to review the aircraft's type certificate data sheet or maintenance logs to ensure that the data for that specific aircraft was being use when determining the various operating limitations. For example, only the latest weight and balance data for an aircraft must be used in determining its performance data and limitations.


Also, as the more modern aircraft were being produced, the simpler flight systems and operating equipment became more complex necessitating more complete flight information. Gone were the simplier days of the classic Piper J3 Cub and similar aircraft. Today's home microwave ovens have more detailed operating instructions than some older aircraft. There may be more people alive today who know how to fly a J3 Cub than there are who can program their home VCR or set its clock.
But even those simplier aircraft of what some people have referred to as aviation's "Golden Age" had to meet certain certification requirements. Those requirements were outlined in the various type certificate data sheets (TCDS) issued by the FAA's predecessor, the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA). Like now, those older aircraft had to conform to the government's approved type certificate for that particular make and model of aircraft which for many was Civil Air Regulation (CAR) 3. Once produced, for those aircraft to remain airworthy, their owners/operators had to maintain and operate their aircraft in a condition as required by the manufacturer in its various manuals and operating limitations provided by the manufacturer as part of the TCDS.

PIC OF OLDER AIRCRAFT
Now enter a pilot of such a vintage aircraft. As we outlined at the beginning of this article, the PIC is responsible for ensuring that an aircraft is airworthy before a flight. One way to check that an aircraft is airworthy in addition to meeting all of the maintenance related requirements is to operate that aircraft within the operating limitations outlined in the aircraft's type certificate data sheet. Simply stated, an aircraft must be operated in accordance with the information provided by its manufacturer and approved by an appropriate government agency as contained in the aircraft's approved type certificate or as subsequently modified with appropriate government approval. That is why when new equipment is added to an aircraft or old equipment removed, a new weight and balance calculation must be made by someone approved and qualified to do the work.


Each aircraft's type certificate data sheet includes approved weight and balance information as well as other operating limitations to ensure its airworthiness and conformity to its type certificate. A PIC is responsible for ensuring that the aircraft meets and is operated within the aircraft's type certificate specifications. Whew!
Add in the FAR requirement for "all available" information, and you have the basis for the W in the regulations of both FAR Parts 21, 23, and 91. It is too bad that FAR Part 91 regulations just don't require that current weight and balance data be required in an aircraft like the aircraft's airworthiness and registration forms are required. It would have saved a lot of work here at the office. But then maybe, general aviation pilots operating under FAR Part 91 are better off without the hard requirement like those contained in the other parts of the FAR.

In those sections, commercial operators are required to fill out weight and balance data forms for each flight and keep that data for specific periods of time. Is this level of record keeping necessary before you take off in your Mark I single-engine aircraft to buy that proverbial $100.00 hamburger? You own the aircraft. You weigh the same. The fuel level is full. And nothing has been added or removed from the aircraft since its last flight yesterday when you calculated the weight and balance. Do you need to recalculate it again today on a special form that needs to be filed and retained for possible FAA review? Or is the fact that you reviewed your weight and balance data as part of your performance calculations for takeoff enough? What do you think? Enjoy the burger.
 
Perfect evidence of the FAA making something that should be so simple, as labyrinthine as possible. Be sure to pack your aviation attorney for your next flight!
 
Perfect evidence of the FAA making something that should be so simple, as labyrinthine as possible. Be sure to pack your aviation attorney for your next flight!
...or perfect evidence of flight instructors oversimplifying something so that 1) a mnemonic works, and 2) they don't have to teach beyond a rote level.
 
...or perfect evidence of flight instructors oversimplifying something so that 1) a mnemonic works, and 2) they don't have to teach beyond a rote level.


I dunno...:dunno:

I teach AROW so the student can pass the requisite tests, but we chack paperwork before flight using the "makes sense" rule.

  • The Airworthiness certificate is parked right ther ein that nice plastic sleeve -- why remove it?
  • You have your Registration in your car when you drive so you can prove its yours. Same ting in airplanes.
  • The Owners manual is most useful in the airplane -- not in a desk drawer.
  • The only time Weight and balance matters is as you laod the airplane. May as well keep it handy.
  • You need your logbook with endorsements, and you need your Medical certificate (which doubles as your Student Pilot certificate), and some sort of picture ID to prove to anyone in a uniform that asks if you're allowed to fly the airplane.
Now, I think the W&B is a stretch -- it is more like weather brief -- have a record so you can prove your case after an accident.

But, it is what it is, and it ain't that hard.;)
 
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Perfect evidence of the FAA making something that should be so simple, as labyrinthine as possible. Be sure to pack your aviation attorney for your next flight!
Only the explanation is complicated -- the rule is simple: you must have the AR(R)OW documents in the plane, and those documents are easily delineated and identified in that simple mnemonic.
 
Only the explanation is complicated -- the rule is simple: you must have the AR(R)OW documents in the plane, and those documents are easily delineated and identified in that simple mnemonic.

The question was not regarding the complexity nor the necessity of the documents required by the mnemonic called AROW. The question is where in the FARs are these requirements to be found.

Another way of looking at it would be that you prove that the elements of Arow actually are genuine regulations.

There is not just one FAR that specifically states that you must have, in your aircraft, the required AROW documents, where are these regulations?

John
 
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Ron, thanks. 91.9 worked, that gives me three. 23.1589 is another matter. Nothing under that heading exists in FAR/AIM 2009. I went to the FAA web site for FARs and nothing came up there either. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/

What I'm looking for is the specific regulation that says you must have a weight and balance certificate in your aircraft before operating it.

Anyone know how or where to find this?

John

Not picking on you specifically, John, but I find that an alarming number of pilots do not look beyond the AIM/FAR book. All of the regulations are available in searchable form at www.faa.gov.

An FAA ops inspector once gave me a list of about 20 agencies with regulations impacting on general aviation, including the Bureau of Land Management and the Department of Energy (the TSA came along later, or it would have been on the list).

You should have a passing familiarity with Part 21, 23, 43, 61, 67, 91, 77, 97, 119 and 135. Not enough to quote verbatim, but enough to know what each covers.

Bob Gardner
 
Not picking on you specifically, John, but I find that an alarming number of pilots do not look beyond the AIM/FAR book. All of the regulations are available in searchable form at www.faa.gov.

An FAA ops inspector once gave me a list of about 20 agencies with regulations impacting on general aviation, including the Bureau of Land Management and the Department of Energy (the TSA came along later, or it would have been on the list).

You should have a passing familiarity with Part 21, 23, 43, 61, 67, 91, 77, 97, 119 and 135. Not enough to quote verbatim, but enough to know what each covers.

Bob Gardner


Bob, I am in total agreement with you. I would take it a step farther, a pilot should have a whole lot more than a passing familiarity with any subject regarding aviation.

There is also a law in this country that in a court of law, lack of knowing something to be against the law, can not be used as defense. That would be indicative of that it is every citizens responsibility to know and understand every law and regulation that pertains to them living in this country

Then the next question would be is a regulation a law? Assuming a regulation would be considered a law by most, much like a government fee would be considered a tax by most, do you not think that any pilot, student or ATP, should have a complete working knowledge of every law and regulation that exists pertaining to aviation?

If you disagree with the above statement, where exactly is the cut off point?

How can a student pilot know every aspect of aviation regulations?

So, getting back to reality, I would bet that very few pilots, much less student pilots, have even a half way understanding of every law and regulation pertaining to aviation. I doubt even the most dedicated bureaucrat could even come close.

All we can do is read as much as our minds can tolerate. Ask as many questions as we can from fellow pilots, (that would be people much like yourself) watch videos, attend aviation safety and educational seminars and lectures, then hope, that along the way, some of the stuff will stick.

John
 
Assuming a regulation would be considered a law by most, much like a government fee would be considered a tax by most, do you not think that any pilot, student or ATP, should have a complete working knowledge of every law and regulation that exists pertaining to aviation?

Nope!

If you disagree with the above statement, where exactly is the cut off point?

It's usually found in <part>.1 Applicability.

Let's look at the sections Bob posted:

21 CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND PARTS
§ 21.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes—
(1) Procedural requirements for the issue of type certificates and changes to those certificates; the issue of production certificates; the issue of airworthiness certificates; and the issue of export airworthiness approvals.
(2) Rules governing the holders of any certificate specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section; and
(3) Procedural requirements for the approval of certain materials, parts, processes, and appliances.

23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
§ 23.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.

So, if we have a question as to the airworthiness of our airplane, whether or not it's OK to use a part, etc. the answer will be here.

43 MAINTENANCE, PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, REBUILDING, AND ALTERATION
§ 43.1 Applicability.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration of any—
(1) Aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate;
(3) Airframe, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, and component parts of such aircraft.

Maintenance question? It'll be here.

61 CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.

Questions about what it'll take to get your next rating? Here you go. 61 and 91 are the most important parts to you as a new pilot. An easy way to remember which one you need to look in was posted by Ron a while back - As I remember it, "If it doesn't matter who's flying the plane, the rule is in part 91. If it does matter who's flying the plane, the rule is in part 61."

67 MEDICAL STANDARDS AND CERTIFICATION
§ 67.1 Applicability.
This part prescribes the medical standards and certification procedures for issuing medical certificates for airmen and for remaining eligible for a medical certificate.

Here's your answers to questions about your medical.

91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
§ 91.1 Applicability.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section and §§91.701 and 91.703, this part prescribes rules governing the operation of aircraft (other than moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets, and unmanned free balloons, which are governed by part 101 of this chapter, and ultralight vehicles operated in accordance with part 103 of this chapter) within the United States, including the waters within 3 nautical miles of the U.S. coast.

The mother of 'em all. If you're a person on an aircraft, and it's not an ultralight, much of this applies to you (there are additional applicability sections - 91.101, 91.401, 91.501, 91.601, 91.701, 91.801, and 91.1001 - that relate to more specific types of ops like fractional operators and such). Know it, live it.

77 OBJECTS AFFECTING NAVIGABLE AIRSPACE
§ 77.1 Scope.
This part:
(a) Establishes standards for determining obstructions in navigable airspace;
(b) Sets forth the requirements for notice to the Administrator of certain proposed construction or alteration;
(c) Provides for aeronautical studies of obstructions to air navigation, to determine their effect on the safe and efficient use of airspace;
(d) Provides for public hearings on the hazardous effect of proposed construction or alteration on air navigation; and
(e) Provides for establishing antenna farm areas.

Town wants to allow a cell tower on your runway centerline? Show them this.

97 STANDARD INSTRUMENT PROCEDURES
§ 97.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes standard instrument approach procedures to civil airports in the United States and the weather minimums that apply to landings under IFR at those airports.
(b) This part also prescribes obstacle departure procedures (ODPs) for certain civil airports in the United States and the weather minimums that apply to takeoffs under IFR at civil airports in the United States.

Not an instrument pilot? No need to read part 97.

119 CERTIFICATION: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS
§ 119.1 Applicability.
(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft—
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air commerce; or
(2) When common carriage is not involved, in operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes with a seat configuration of 20 or more passengers, or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more.

135 OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: COMMUTER AND ON DEMAND OPERATIONS AND RULES GOVERNING PERSONS ON BOARD SUCH AIRCRAFT
§ 135.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes rules governing—
(1) The commuter or on-demand operations of each person who holds or is required to hold an Air Carrier Certificate or Operating Certificate under part 119 of this chapter.

Not flying big airplanes yet, or getting paid to fly airplanes? These don't apply to you.

How can a student pilot know every aspect of aviation regulations?

The most important aspect is "Does this reg apply to me?" As you progress, you'll add things here and there. But to start with, you just need to know how big your personal piloting regulation sandbox is, where the edges are. If you want to expand those edges, then you need to learn more (and probably do some instruction and maybe checkrides in the process).


I would suggest also being familiar with one part that Bob didn't mention - Part 93. It covers a few special cases you may well run into as a private pilot, for example, operations around the Grand Canyon. You don't need to know it to the letter, just know that it exists. Look at the various pieces of Part 93 and find them on the sectionals - I think they're generally marked somehow. But this is where you go to find the details when you see that funny note on the chart.
 
The point is, hardly any to none of this is covered in training. And if you dont have the internet how do you get hold of parts 21/23/43 etc....
 
The question was not regarding the complexity nor the necessity of the documents required by the mnemonic called AROW. The question is where in the FARs are these requirements to be found.

Another way of looking at it would be that you prove that the elements of Arow actually are genuine regulations.

There is not just one FAR that specifically states that you must have, in your aircraft, the required AROW documents, where are these regulations?
That is explained in the document I posted. Take the time to read it completely.
 
The point is, hardly any to none of this is covered in training. And if you dont have the internet how do you get hold of parts 21/23/43 etc....
Aside from the likelihood that someone does not have the internet these days and that if you have printed versions of all of the regulations that are part of the FAR filling your bookshelves, they'd probably be out of date anyway.

So, for better or for worse, we take shortcuts in training. Some are much worse than others. The "O" is derivative of the 91.9(b) requirement for an AFM or "approved manual material, markings, and placards" (which might be foud by delving into FAR Part 23 or even the old CAR regs that predated the FAR.

The the "W" is derived from two places. There are indeed some TCDS that say
==============================
Current weight and balance report including list of equipment included in certificated weight empty, and loading instructions when necessary, must be in each aircraft at the time of original certification and at all time thereafter...
==============================

The second is 91.9 again. For aicraft that have an AFM (which has to be on board) if you dive into FAR 23.1581-1598, you'll find the requirement for weight and balance information in it.

Now someone might not by satisfied by an answer that says, it's derivative of a lots of other regs and there might be some airplanes that technically slip thorough the cracks, but it applies to all most all of the production aircraft you are likely to come in contact with.

And if that's the case, I think that's great. That person should go study it as deeply as he or she wants. But for a lot of us that depth is not that necessary.
 
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The point is, hardly any to none of this is covered in training.
Sounds like an instructor qualification problem. I guarantee every trainee of mine knows the AR(R)OW requirements before I send them for any practical test, and I sure did before I went for mine.
And if you dont have the internet how do you get hold of parts 21/23/43 etc....
They're public records accessible at many libraries. In addition, Part 43 is part of the standard FAR/AIM book we all buy every year (I hope).
 
Sounds like an instructor qualification problem. I guarantee every trainee of mine knows the AR(R)OW requirements before I send them for any practical test, and I sure did before I went for mine.
I think that EdFred was referring to the depth of explanation about where it came from, not the simple rote memorization of the acronym and what it stands for (at least that's how I took it in my response)
 
I think that EdFred was referring to the depth of explanation about where it came from, not the simple rote memorization of the acronym and what it stands for (at least that's how I took it in my response)

You're right, the majority of pilots (and instructors) are trained to remember the acronym and be able to recite it during an oral without understanding the basis of where it came from, much less what's really required depending upon different aircraft.
 
Except for possibly the handbook/manual, I suggest that carrying any of those has not improved upon aviation safety any significant amount. The whole thing has just become a gotcha tool for ops inspectors.
 
Bob, I am in total agreement with you. I would take it a step farther, a pilot should have a whole lot more than a passing familiarity with any subject regarding aviation.

There is also a law in this country that in a court of law, lack of knowing something to be against the law, can not be used as defense. That would be indicative of that it is every citizens responsibility to know and understand every law and regulation that pertains to them living in this country

Then the next question would be is a regulation a law? Assuming a regulation would be considered a law by most, much like a government fee would be considered a tax by most, do you not think that any pilot, student or ATP, should have a complete working knowledge of every law and regulation that exists pertaining to aviation?

If you disagree with the above statement, where exactly is the cut off point?

How can a student pilot know every aspect of aviation regulations?

So, getting back to reality, I would bet that very few pilots, much less student pilots, have even a half way understanding of every law and regulation pertaining to aviation. I doubt even the most dedicated bureaucrat could even come close.

All we can do is read as much as our minds can tolerate. Ask as many questions as we can from fellow pilots, (that would be people much like yourself) watch videos, attend aviation safety and educational seminars and lectures, then hope, that along the way, some of the stuff will stick.

John

I balk at the "complete working knowledge" part. A student should know that Part 23 tells manufacturers how to certify an airplane and is the place to look for the standards that manufacturers must meet; a student should know that maintenance regs are found in Part 43, etc. A student should know what Advisory Circulars are and how to find them. The PTS does contain a list of the references pilots are expected to be familiar with.

These days, hardly anything is beyond the reach of a search engine.

Bob
 
The point is, hardly any to none of this is covered in training. And if you dont have the internet how do you get hold of parts 21/23/43 etc....

Where I live, they have these quaint institutions known as "libraries," where computer use is free.

Bob Gardner
 
You're right, the majority of pilots (and instructors) are trained to remember the acronym and be able to recite it during an oral without understanding the basis of where it came from, much less what's really required depending upon different aircraft.
Given the reaction of folks to the FAA's explanation of the bases for the various requirements, I think that it would be a poor use of the trainees' and instructors' time to try to teach it. It's easy to learn what's required, and there's no particular gain in learning the background, so why complicate matters? It would be like trying to explain to every trainee why one must have night lighting on starting at sunset, but not log night time until civil twilight, and not count landings for currency until an hour after sunset. Them's the rules, they're not hard to learn by rote, so do that and move on. Let's use the time it would take to explain the logic behind them for better things, like teaching people how to make good landings or good inflight decisions.
 
Given the reaction of folks to the FAA's explanation of the bases for the various requirements, I think that it would be a poor use of the trainees' and instructors' time to try to teach it. It's easy to learn what's required, and there's no particular gain in learning the background, so why complicate matters? It would be like trying to explain to every trainee why one must have night lighting on starting at sunset, but not log night time until civil twilight, and not count landings for currency until an hour after sunset. Them's the rules, they're not hard to learn by rote, so do that and move on. Let's use the time it would take to explain the logic behind them for better things, like teaching people how to make good landings or good inflight decisions.

When I ran my Helicopter business we had a class "Maintenance 101" in which we took all students in and went over how to read logbooks, what were AD's and how they applied, inspections, documentation, etc. As PIC they are responsible so why not give some extra education?
 
When I ran my Helicopter business we had a class "Maintenance 101" in which we took all students in and went over how to read logbooks, what were AD's and how they applied, inspections, documentation, etc. As PIC they are responsible so why not give some extra education?
I think there's a big difference between knowing what the requirements are and how to determine if they're met, versus understanding the FAA's often obscure and occasionally inscrutable logic in establishing those requirements.
 
I think there's a big difference between knowing what the requirements are and how to determine if they're met, versus understanding the FAA's often obscure and occasionally inscrutable logic in establishing those requirements.

One of the scenarios I would pose to a Commercial student is he is asked to go to an airport and pick up a helicopter a customer has recently purchased and fly it back. How does he know the helicopter is legal to fly?

If he uses the rote "Arrow" thinking this will get him by, he's wrong because there is much more to it.

I would pull out a set of logbooks then ask him to show me the aircraft is legal to make the trip as well as the required aircraft documents.

The motto we used at the school was "We teach you how to fly, not just how to pass the test". Today most schools only care about teaching just what's required to pass the test.
 
One of the scenarios I would pose to a Commercial student is he is asked to go to an airport and pick up a helicopter a customer has recently purchased and fly it back. How does he know the helicopter is legal to fly?

If he uses the rote "Arrow" thinking this will get him by, he's wrong because there is much more to it.
No question, and that's why I teach AV1ATE as well as ARROW. However, when it comes to documents which must be on board for a Part 91 flight, ARROW covers it without having to go through a pile of FAR's and understanding the FAA's derivative thinking on the issue, and that's why I teach it.

I would pull out a set of logbooks then ask him to show me the aircraft is legal to make the trip as well as the required aircraft documents.
BTW, AV1ATE is:
  • Annual
  • VOR
  • 100-hour
  • Altimeter/static
  • Transponder
  • ELT - Battery and ops check
...and folks seem to have no trouble remembering this one.
 
No question, and that's why I teach AV1ATE as well as ARROW. However, when it comes to documents which must be on board for a Part 91 flight, ARROW covers it without having to go through a pile of FAR's and understanding the FAA's derivative thinking on the issue, and that's why I teach it.


BTW, AV1ATE is:
  • Annual
  • VOR
  • 100-hour
  • Altimeter/static
  • Transponder
  • ELT - Battery and ops check
...and folks seem to have no trouble remembering this one.

How about AD's? And Life Limited components? Back to my scenario of the commercial pilot going to pick up an aircraft he's never seen before if he misses these and accepts the aircraft and flies it only to find a recurring AD was not complied with or it has a life limited part that has timed out.

Even though all of this is very important knowledge for aircraft operations the majority of flight schools only teach the bare minimums to pass the checkride and most students don't have a clue as to what's in the logbook or required unless they themselves are motivated to go beyond what is taught and do the research themselves or have someone take the time to teach them correctly.
 
How about AD's? And Life Limited components? Back to my scenario of the commercial pilot going to pick up an aircraft he's never seen before if he misses these and accepts the aircraft and flies it only to find a recurring AD was not complied with or it has a life limited part that has timed out.

Even though all of this is very important knowledge for aircraft operations the majority of flight schools only teach the bare minimums to pass the checkride and most students don't have a clue as to what's in the logbook or required unless they themselves are motivated to go beyond what is taught and do the research themselves or have someone take the time to teach them correctly.
I think what you're really pointing out is the overall problem with using acronyms for teaching. In most cases, the acronym becomes more important than the material. The acronym also often excludes important items or includes unessential items so that the acronym remains intact.

For example, I've been doing an unscientific informal survey over a number of years now and the results have been that a pilot who learned TOMATOFLAMES is more likely to get a simple inop equipment question wrong that one who never heard of it. They remember the items in 91.205 but haven't a clue about 91.213, the real required equipment reg.
 
How about AD's? And Life Limited components? Even though all of this is very important knowledge for aircraft operations the majority of flight schools only teach the bare minimums to pass the checkride and most students don't have a clue as to what's in the logbook or required unless they themselves are motivated to go beyond what is taught and do the research themselves or have someone take the time to teach them correctly.
Then they aren't teaching "the bare minimums to pass the checkride" because those items are part of the practical test for Private Pilot. See Area I, Task B, item 2.
 
For example, I've been doing an unscientific informal survey over a number of years now and the results have been that a pilot who learned TOMATOFLAMES is more likely to get a simple inop equipment question wrong that one who never heard of it. They remember the items in 91.205 but haven't a clue about 91.213, the real required equipment reg.
Since there's absolutely no point memorizing something that's listed all in one place in the regs, and can easily be looked up if the issue arises, I don't teach (and discourage the use of) that particular mnemonic. OTOH, the ARROW and AV1ATE acronyms are useful because they draw together items which are scattered around and/or derivative, and thus hard to look up. IOW, there's a big difference between "is this particular piece of equipment required for VFR/IFR flight?" and "what papers/inspections are required?"
 
All of this makes me wonder what a person who is tentatively thinking about taking flying lessons, would be thinking if they were following along with this thread?

Do you think AOPA would want to add this to their mentor program? :)

John
 
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