Are unposted/unpublished...

EdFred

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
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White Chocolate
...ramp/parking/line fees legally enforceable?

If you go into Wal-Mart and don't buy anything, they don't charge you to park, they don't charge you to walk through the door, they don't charge you to use the rest room, nor do they charge you to meet someone there. Our regional Wal-Mart equivalent of Meijer even has designated overnight parking/car pool areas that they don't charge for at all.

Public automobile parking areas always state whether the parking is free, or what it is per half hour/hour/day, so you know before hand what you're paying, and by parking there, you are agreeing to the terms of the implied contract once you enter the facility.

But not with FBO's. Many to almost all FBO's do not post their fees on their websites, nor on a sign entering the ramp, nor any indication that there are actually any fees if you park, land, or taxi past their facility. They don't even tell you if there are any fees when you arrive, but as soon as you shut off the engine, you're suddenly on the hook ,in some cases, for hundreds of dollars depending on the airport. Fuel prices, they do post, so it's not expected that fuel is free.

It isn't like there is a standard, where it's implied that we should know there are fees. Madison, WI - a class C - doesn't charge any, but I got hit for $75 worth at RYY - a class D and used exactly zero services. Even at the same airport, some FBO's charge, some don't.

So what's the legal stance/precedence for being charged without prior notice and being obligated to pay it?
 
many FBOs lease the land they are on, so.
 
While I understand the charging ramp fees due to leased space upkeep etc...I do think that FBOs should at least post ramp fees on their sites. Is there anywhere online that you can find a listing of ramp fees?
 
Part of flight planning should include calling ahead for fees. Not being sarcastic, but often they may have capability that you are not aware of ... Stinson used to be able to get KILLER deals on car rentals and hotels on the river, often for about a third or half the internet listed rates. Did the same in Glendale AZ. This was a couple of years ago, so not sure what they are capable of now ...
 
My guess is it actually isn't legal to have unposed fees that you only realize after you've used the service. I doubt anyone would really press it for $25. I do agree that a call ahead is a good idea. That said, I've had lots of flights were I would make a fuel stop on an ad hoc basis. With todays' navigation it is certain facile to do so and can make a flight into a bit more of an adventure. On that basis it is very difficult to determine beforehand.
 
If they really wanted to inform the consumer/collect fees, they should paint it on the tarmac as you enter the non-movement area.
 
Sorry for what happened Ed.
RYY has gone to **** since Hawthorne took over from Atlanta Exec, especially regarding fees. As the ONLY source of Fuel and only FBO, they can do what the city/county will allow them to do. They are an example of why monopolies can really suck.

I would have a really serious discussion with them and if it doesnt help, maybe call the county and discuss their lack of transparency about these excessive fees. $75 is outrageous for a piston single at a local class D. A lot of class C's charge way less. Hell there are probably B's you can land at for less.
 
They did waive the fees after I left and emailed the manager stating how I liked paying for services I didn't actually use. The best part was where they charged me for tie downs, but didn't actually tie my plane down, or even move it to their parking area. I like Preferred Jet when they were there. But it's no surprise why FBOs like them (and a few others) have comments disabled on AirNav.

The thing is, before Hawthorne, it was what, like $15 a week to park there and you even got a free t-shirt.

The FBO in Lansing, MI also charges fees on Lifeline/Angel Flights - but none if this is listed anywhere for you to know ahead of time.
 
There is a class E airport nearby with no fees mentioned in the A/FD. The FBO is rumored to track you down by your tail number and demand $100 or $200 if you so much as make a touch and go. I was also just in Costa Rica where very non-official looking people sit near the beach parking areas and try to charge $2 to watch your car and make sure nobody breaks into it. There is little distinction. The FBO and the beach parking racketeer both do what they get away with.
 
When I did my training CC into KBJC last month my instructor was a bit shocked when they mentioned a landing fee. It must have been a fairly new fee since she has landed there before. I half expected them to waive all or part of the fee when I told them to top the tanks, but no dice.

Sad since the main local site for my job is just down the hill from there in the tech park, and a lot of the spousal justification for even getting my PPL was to fly back there once or twice a month for some face-to-face time with people. Just another "cost to flying" to reduce the interest of people in GA that we keep talking about on this board.
 
There's an airport in CT (Bridgeport?) that will automatically send the registered owner of an aircraft a bill in the mail if they so much as _file_ an IFR flight plan to the airport. They have a purely automated system that just looks up the owner by N-number as soon as the route shows up in the system.
 
DeckardTrinity said:
There's an airport in CT (Bridgeport?) that will automatically send the registered owner of an aircraft a bill in the mail if they so much as _file_ an IFR flight plan to the airport. They have a purely automated system that just looks up the owner by N-number as soon as the route shows up in the system.
Click to expand...

Sounds like we need to all file to that airport *every* day for about 2 months, let them spend a few thousand on stamps, and just toss the bills when they show up in the mail.
 
I've been charged and paid landing and facility fees, but I only pay once. Lots and lots of airports out there.
 
I don't think there's much they can do if you get back in your plane and leave upon realizing they want to fleece you with unposted fees.

Some towered airports might coordinate and deny a takeoff clearance? Maybe? But I doubt it.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like we need to all file to that airport *every* day for about 2 months, let them spend a few thousand on stamps, and just toss the bills when they show up in the mail.
Click to expand...
Better yet, look up the N number for some.....oh I dont know....CAP birds and use them to file.
 
Mike Smith said:
Better yet, look up the N number for some.....oh I dont know....CAP birds and use them to file.
Click to expand...
Not a good idea to do illegal things to make a point.

Using a false tail number is evidence of intent to defraud.

And it's also a form of identity theft.
 
steingar said:
My guess is it actually isn't legal to have unposed fees that you only realize after you've used the service.
Click to expand...
LOL, every gone to the hospital or had any kind of testing?
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a good idea to do illegal things to make a point.

Using a false tail number is evidence of intent to defraud.

And it's also a form of identity theft.
Click to expand...
Citation?
 
Blindrage said:
When I did my training CC into KBJC last month my instructor was a bit shocked when they mentioned a landing fee. It must have been a fairly new fee since she has landed there before. I half expected them to waive all or part of the fee when I told them to top the tanks, but no dice.

Sad since the main local site for my job is just down the hill from there in the tech park, and a lot of the spousal justification for even getting my PPL was to fly back there once or twice a month for some face-to-face time with people. Just another "cost to flying" to reduce the interest of people in GA that we keep talking about on this board.
Click to expand...
Signature just bought that FBO... No one likes signature.
 
EdFred said:
Citation?
Click to expand...

In your state, MCL 445.65(b)(i).

It's illegal to hide your identity to avoid a charge everywhere. Why would you think otherwise?

You can challenge their right to make a charge, but not by pretending to be someone else.
 
MAKG1 said:
In your state, MCL 445.65(b)(i).

It's illegal to hide your identity to avoid a charge everywhere. Why would you think otherwise?

You can challenge their right to make a charge, but not by pretending to be someone else.
Click to expand...
Except I'm not actually landing there if I just file nor avoiding any legitimate charge. Nor am I taping different N numbers on my plane. He'll I could even file with my actual name on the flight plan that the automated system doesn't bothher to check. So I'm not hiding my identity at all.
 
EdFred said:
Except I'm not actually landing there if I just file nor avoiding any legitimate charge. Nor am I taping different N numbers on my plane. He'll I could even file with my actual name on the flight plan that the automated system doesn't bothher to check. So I'm not hiding my identity at all.
Click to expand...

You can argue legitimacy, but directing a charge to someone else by using their tail number is identity theft. Even if it's "illegitimate." In Michigan, it's identity theft even if the tail number doesn't exist. Your intent is to avoid a payment.

The non-***hole thing to do is to challenge the charge under your own identity.

How would you like it if a bunch of jerks filed to this place using YOUR tail number?
 
I'd throw out the bills just as if I had filed myself.

N727DS - feel free

And it's nowhere near identity theft now matter how much you want it to be . Next youll be saying I'm illegally avoiding a charge by not even landing there.
 
DeckardTrinity said:
There's an airport in CT (Bridgeport?) that will automatically send the registered owner of an aircraft a bill in the mail if they so much as _file_ an IFR flight plan to the airport. They have a purely automated system that just looks up the owner by N-number as soon as the route shows up in the system.
Click to expand...

What if you file them as alternate?
 
EdFred said:
Except I'm not actually landing there if I just file nor avoiding any legitimate charge. Nor am I taping different N numbers on my plane. He'll I could even file with my actual name on the flight plan that the automated system doesn't bothher to check. So I'm not hiding my identity at all.
Click to expand...
He is talking about my joke about CAP N numbers, at least I hope that's what he is doing.
 
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