AOPA Renewal??

flyingmoose

flyingmoose

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Flyingmoose
So I was sitting here with a letter from AOPA that says its time for me to renew. I really have mixed emotions on if I should send it in. On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry, but on the other I don't know how much good they are doing. Maybe its because I can't see it, so..........

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?

And some reasons not to renew?

Just curious.
 
flyingmoose said:
On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry,
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The EAA is also one group that is involved.

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?
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Well, reasons are pretty individualistic. I renew with both AOPA and EAA because they ARE pretty much the only game in town as far as GA advocacy goes. Yeah, they both have warts, but show me any organization that can't use some improvement.

I won't give you any reasons not to. You can come up with them on your own. Also personal preferences.
 
Their dear leader makes 815K a year and has a bizjet at his disposal, is that really necessary for supporting GA? Advocate fleecing, cripes the NRA is less wasteful then AOPA and the NRA has huge indoor ranges.
 
The inmates always think they would do a better job running the asylum. Never mind that most of them couldn't spell it.

flyingmoose said:
So I was sitting here with a letter from AOPA that says its time for me to renew. I really have mixed emotions on if I should send it in. On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry, but on the other I don't know how much good they are doing. Maybe its because I can't see it, so..........

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?

And some reasons not to renew?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
 
flyingmoose said:
So I was sitting here with a letter from AOPA that says its time for me to renew. I really have mixed emotions on if I should send it in. On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry, but on the other I don't know how much good they are doing. Maybe its because I can't see it, so..........

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?

And some reasons not to renew?

Just curious.
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I have not renewed for several years. They seem more to cozy up to Rich fbos and 135 operations than to individuals. Not my concern.

Keep your money in your pocket or join a type club or even EAA.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Their dear leader makes 815K a year and has a bizjet at his disposal, is that really necessary for supporting GA? Advocate fleecing, cripes the NRA is less wasteful then AOPA and the NRA has huge indoor ranges.
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I would be more impressed if he piloted his own Cessna 180 or Baron.
 
When I was looking for an airplane to buy they answered a lot of questions for me and were patient. I do not participate in all the fund raisers and stuff but overall feel they do more good than harm.

Now those that were helping me were the guys and gals in the trenches, not Mr Fuller. I think his salary is way overboard, but I have similar thoughts about most of our government leaders as well. I have no plans to quit the USA.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Their dear leader makes 815K a year and has a bizjet at his disposal, is that really necessary for supporting GA? Advocate fleecing, cripes the NRA is less wasteful then AOPA and the NRA has huge indoor ranges.
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AOPA has a business jet for their employees? Oh the horror! And the NRA has indoor ranges? It's as though they're some type firearm lobbying organization.
 
Tony_Fletcher said:
AOPA has a business jet for their employees? Oh the horror! And the NRA has indoor ranges? It's as though they're some type firearm lobbying organization.
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Tony Fletcher's second post since joining POA....Hmmm.

And he is from Alexandria VA... isn't that the home of AOPA ??:dunno::rolleyes:

I have 10 bucks he is a AOPA employee.. or a close friend to someone.:yes:
 
N801BH said:
Tony Fletcher's second post since joining POA....Hmmm.

And he is from Alexandria VA... isn't that the home of AOPA ??:dunno::rolleyes:

I have 10 bucks he is a AOPA employee.. or a close friend to someone.:yes:
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:lol::lol: if they have to defend themselves on pilot forums they have already lost.
 
flyingmoose said:
If you are a member, are you renewing?
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Not sure anymore. I just made the mistake of actually reading the AOPA bylaws. Read below under reasons not to renew.

Give me some reasons to renew?
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Magazine is so-so; somewhat underwhelming but not terrible (by my standards, anyway.) Their website has a bunch of useful info and services related to airplanes, airplane values, airfields, and so on. Annual subscription fee isn't too bad relative to what you get, which does include government advocacy.

And some reasons not to renew?
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The directors and executives have set executive salaries too high relative to the value they currently deliver for members. If GA really was something they felt strongly about, they wouldn't need large salaries to stay on. A large salary is probably prima facie evidence that the executive has a genuine desire to help GA. AOPA is not a business and the standards used for executive selection for businesses need not apply to such an organization. This is because the service rendered by the organization does not operate in a competitive marketplace.

They also suffer the common problem of executive in-breeding at the top, particularly on the board of trustees, because the by-laws were set up to favor trustee selected lineage:

"Any vacancy on the Board of Trustees shall be filled by the appointment of a new Trustee by a majority of the Trustees in office, effective until a replacement is elected.
[...]
The Board of Trustees shall designate a Nominating Committee of not less than two members. No person shall be a candidate for Trustee who has not been approved and recommended by the Nominating Committee."

From: http://www.aopa.org/info/governance/bylaws.html

The bylaws make it impossible for the general membership individually or collectively to unseat any of the trustees who they do not want unseated. The AOPA is therefore not a member driven organization, but rather a trustee driven organization.

A drive to change the bylaws to move more authority over trustees to the so-called "members" might be amusing (in a sad sort of way) to watch. Not sure if that has been tried during its existence.
 
Interesting how people leap to defend executive salaries and company airplanes until they feel it's coming out of their own pockets...
 
Jim Logajan said:
The bylaws make it impossible for the general membership individually or collectively to unseat any of the trustees who they do not want unseated. The AOPA is therefore not a member driven organization, but rather a trustee driven organization.

A drive to change the bylaws to move more authority over trustees to the so-called "members" might be amusing (in a sad sort of way) to watch. Not sure if that has been tried during its existence.
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Indeed the member revolt at EAA made a big difference by comparison, even though rebels failed to win any formal counts. But at least they had an opportunity, legally. Oddly enough, Rod getting the boot and Jack Pelton getting onboard reminded me to join EAA. Well, they took my money and ... nothing. No card no letter no thing. I don't even know my member number that I need to join a local chapter. At least AOPA's well-oiled marketing machine would immediately bombard me with their junk.
 
zaitcev said:
Indeed the member revolt at EAA made a big difference by comparison, even though rebels failed to win any formal counts. But at least they had an opportunity, legally. Oddly enough, Rod getting the boot .
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I would not call us "rebels"...

And we did set them straight on our concerns.....


And..... there is more in the pipeline if they don't reconfigure their inner workings..

Stay tuned....:yes:

EAA Lifetime member.....
 
I found the magazine kind of boring so I dropped. And the articles are too long for the little substance they have. Also the text font size is kind of small for easy reading. I subscribe and recommend Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine. They have a much broader coverage and very well edited.

José
 
I've liked the Recreational Aviation Foundation's undeniable effectiveness for many years:

http://theraf.org/ because even though it's more specialized in focus than the broad scope of PoA pilots would prefer, it gets things DONE that benefit ALL GA pilots.

I will remain a member to just about every GA aviation alphabet group that there is including AOPA however, the more I hear and see written about high salaries and low performance, the more I listen to people that advocate witholding a substantial fraction of their dues with a statement in writing on their renewal form as to why.

It's their way of saying, "We want to stay with you AOPA but, tighten up your (our) ship or next time it will be nothing!" It looks more effective to do that than for members to just disappear.
 
If you're into weapons systems and international defense expenditures, Aviation Leak is a fine publication. Otherwise it's worthless.

Piloto said:
I found the magazine kind of boring so I dropped. And the articles are too long for the little substance they have. Also the text font size is kind of small for easy reading. I subscribe and recommend Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine. They have a much broader coverage and very well edited.

José
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It's the only voice I have in Washington. I've been a member since the early 1960s and renew when the time comes.
 
N801BH said:
Tony Fletcher's second post since joining POA....Hmmm.

And he is from Alexandria VA... isn't that the home of AOPA ??:dunno::rolleyes:

I have 10 bucks he is a AOPA employee.. or a close friend to someone.:yes:
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AOPA HQ is Frederick, Maryland. Not all that close.

Bob Gardner
 
Most of the drop-outs have no idea what really happens in a lobby group. Nor will the lobby ever disclose everything they are doing and with whom, for all the reasons that should be obvious to anybody who thinks about it more than 5 minutes.

They're just looking for an excuse to cheap out.

bobmrg said:
It's the only voice I have in Washington. I've been a member since the early 1960s and renew when the time comes.
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wabower said:
Most of the drop-outs have no idea what really happens in a lobby group. Nor will the lobby ever disclose everything they are doing and with whom, for all the reasons that should be obvious to anybody who thinks about it more than 5 minutes.

They're just looking for an excuse to cheap out.
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That most have no idea of what is involved in lobbying is probably true, however, I have worked in the lobbying world.

As I wrote in the renewal notice I sent back to them, I will gladly renew my membership and pay my dues when Craig steps down
 
What did you list as the reasons Craig should resign?

Fearless Tower said:
That most have no idea of what is involved in lobbying is probably true, however, I have worked in the lobbying world.

As I wrote in the renewal notice I sent back to them, I will gladly renew my membership and pay my dues when Craig steps down
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From a students point of view I learn alot from the AOPA. The amount of info for student pilots that the AOPA offers is just awesome.

I believe to the newbie pilot the AOPA means something different then what it means to the seasoned pilot. We look for guidiness, and the seasoned pilot..well I am not real sure what he/she is looking for, you must ask one, but not real sure training is on his/her list of things needed done today.

Just say-in
 
wabower said:
Most of the drop-outs have no idea what really happens in a lobby group. Nor will the lobby ever disclose everything they are doing and with whom, for all the reasons that should be obvious to anybody who thinks about it more than 5 minutes.
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In physics, whenever anyone makes an argument for the existence of something whose properties are such that it can't be measured or tested, it is considered a null concept of no value. Your claims fall into the same realm. You need to give specific examples where you know or believe AOPA lobbiest made a difference in legislation.

They're just looking for an excuse to cheap out.
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No other reason could possibly exist, eh?
 
To whom in Washington did Einstein find it necessary to present his argument in hopes of finding congressional support for his theories?

Jim Logajan said:
In physics, whenever anyone makes an argument for the existence of something whose properties are such that it can't be measured or tested, it is considered a null concept of no value. Your claims fall into the same realm. You need to give specific examples where you know or believe AOPA lobbiest made a difference in legislation.



No other reason could possibly exist, eh?
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Stick around a few years and get back to me with the other reasons. Nothing has changed for the 35 years I've been a member.
 
1600vw said:
From a students point of view I learn alot from the AOPA. The amount of info for student pilots that the AOPA offers is just awesome.

I believe to the newbie pilot the AOPA means something different then what it means to the seasoned pilot. We look for guidiness, and the seasoned pilot..well I am not real sure what he/she is looking for, you must ask one, but not real sure training is on his/her list of things needed done today.

Just say-in
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I was the same way for over 5 years or more, then the magazine got given away to very thankful wannabes and others. I was more into EAA and Seaplanes by then.

Still renew on ALL of them as of now. What is it, about 40 buck$ for any org? No big expenditure if even a little return is gained for GA.
 
wabower said:
They're just looking for an excuse to cheap out.
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yeah, that's the reason.

Tossing money at an ineffective organization couldn't be a reason.

AOPA is an organization that really helps the small GA community...not.

Love the insurance scams.

Yep, the reason for not paying AOPA money is because I'm cheap.

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
 
Bob Noel said:
yeah, that's the reason.

Tossing money at an ineffective organization couldn't be a reason.

AOPA is an organization that really helps the small GA community...not.

Love the insurance scams.

Yep, the reason for not paying AOPA money is because I'm cheap.

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
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What are the insurance scams? I've had my insurance with them for 4 years and nobody has beat the rates they get me, not even close. Plus, after laying out the cash for a plane, ferry pilot(s) and fuel to get it across the country twice, it was nice having them set me up with reasonable financing on the premium (~$1,800) to give me a little breathing room with the cash I was hemorrhaging.
 
I've been a member since 1989 and will continue for as long as I fly. I don't think the organization is perfect, but I do think it's important to have a voice in DC for GA. While AOPA doesn't get everything done in DC that we GA pilots would like, what would we get without their lobbying? :dunno: I spent 3 years on the National Ford Dealer Council, I figured out real quick, it wasn't always what we got done, sometimes it was what we stopped that counted. :eek: We were basically the representatives of the dealers and dealt with the brass at Ford and some of the goofiest ideas I ever heard that they all thought would be great in the real world.:no: I'm pretty sure the lobbyists do something similar with our out of touch congress critters on our behalf.
Regardless of how effective the lobbyists are, I like the magazine, not every article, but it's great bathroom material. The cost is really minimal, especially in the scheme of what my annual aviation expenses.;) I think Craig makes a lot of money, maybe too much, maybe too little, I do know the heads of big organizations make big money. But I as long as the organization is doing well financially, I really don't care what the job pays, unless of course they want a different fat guy for the job and call me.:yes:
It's certainly a personal choice, I just think it's an organization that does more the help GA than any other I am familiar with and $50.00 a year is my least annual expenditure relating to aviation.:D
 
Speaking of fat guys (looking at my own belly) what happened to Craig's well documented weight loss efforts?
 
Bob Noel said:
yeah, that's the reason.

Tossing money at an ineffective organization couldn't be a reason.

AOPA is an organization that really helps the small GA community...not.

Love the insurance scams.

Yep, the reason for not paying AOPA money is because I'm cheap.

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
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And what do Dr. Phil and all the truth-detector experts advise when somebody says "it's not about the money"?
 
wabower said:
What did you list as the reasons Craig should resign?
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To begin with, he is the head of the organization and since taking over, I have seen AOPA drift further from a mission of representing GA as a whole to catering to special interest groups. AOPA was by no means perfect before Craig, but it has most definitely not gotten better. Call me old fashioned, but I believe an executive needs to have some degree of accountability to the members. If the executive fails to represent the interests of the shareholders, that exec needs to be shown the door. For the record, this problem is not limited to AOPA. Lack of accountability of corporate leadership is becoming more and more common, unfortunately.

It goes back to my comment on the other thread - If you are going to insist that you need a high salary to stay around, you best produce or go home. So far Craig does not have much to show for his performance.

Other things I don't like:
-The abuse of position - his limosines wherever he goes (Boyer specifically felt that sort of treatment not proper for the position). The personal use of the private jet. I don't mind AOPA having a jet, but it should be for business only, not personal trips for Craig and staff.

-Production of products that specifically compete with other existing manufacturers in the industry that it supposedly supports. Why is an aviation advocacy group even trying to do this???

-Spending money on new studies to determine why aspiring pilots don't complete their training when the answer is right under our noses - most folks can't afford this thing called aviation.

-Paying execs huge salaries while the bulk of the staff are paid peanuts. It isn't just the members that have been leaving AOPA. Alot of great employees have gotten fed up and pulled chocks to go elsewhere.

-The fact that Craig scratches his head and says he is puzzled by the number of pilots leaving AOPA. That right there should tell you how out of touch with the membership he is.

Craig Fuller is NOT an effective leader.
 
wabower said:
And what do Dr. Phil and all the truth-detector experts advise when somebody says "it's not about the money"?
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Don't know and don't give a flying .....
 
wabower said:
To whom in Washington did Einstein find it necessary to present his argument in hopes of finding congressional support for his theories?

Stick around a few years and get back to me with the other reasons. Nothing has changed for the 35 years I've been a member.
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You seem unable to give specific examples of legislation that passed due to the efforts of AOPA or were thwarted due to their efforts.

You probably think you are doing AOPA a favor defending them this way, but since I already am a member of AOPA, I know you are accomplishing the opposite of what you intend. I expect evidence to support assertions. Vague handwaving and patronization is something I expect of scammers and the lazy.
 
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