Any other small bidness owners here?

[wabower]

Quick question for you, statistics-face. If it's so bad, why don't they all move somewhere that it's better? Why are we growing so fast, are they just coming here to be miserable?

I sure do agree on that one. "First in pollution & last in literacy". What's there not to like!?!? More detail from 2009 stats:

Tax Revenue Raised Per Capita = 49th

Average Teacher Salary = 49th

Current Expenditures Per Student = 44th

Percent of Adult Population With a [HS] Diploma = 50th

Percentage of Uninsured Children = 1st

Percentage of Children Overweight = 5th

Teenage Birth Rate = 1st

Percentage of Women with Health Insurance = 50th

Percentage of Population Uninsured = 1st

Average Credit Score = 50th

Air Pollution Emissions = 1st

Amount of [VOC's] Released into Air = 1st

Amount of Toxic Chemicals Released into Water = 1st

Amount of Recognized Cancer-Causing Carcinogens Released into Air = 1st

Amount of Hazardous Waste Generated = 2nd

Amount of Carbon Dioxide Emissions = 1st

THAT ROCKS!!!

 

[RotorAndWing]

Quick question for you, statistics-face. If it's so bad, why don't they all move somewhere that it's better? Why are we growing so fast, are they just coming here to be miserable?

I thought real Texans were really Mexicans on their way to Oklahoma and ran out of money.

 

[wabower]

I thought real Texans were really Mexicans on their way to Oklahoma and ran out of money.

That sounds pretty close. When I moved from Oklahoma to Texas they said it raised the average IQ in both states.

 

[timwinters]

Quick question for you, statistics-face. If it's so bad, why don't they all move somewhere that it's better? Why are we growing so fast, are they just coming here to be miserable?

It's the cool weather and the mountains!

 

[wabower]

It's the cool weather and the mountains!

Both are true, depending on the breadth of the definition and the time of year. It's in the 50's here today, but the hills are a full day's drive.

 

[dmspilot]

Do you pay or do your customers pay? At almost all the mo-hotels I've stayed at the "hotel/motel/restaurant tax" was clearly added onto the bill. The mo-hotel operator was just a trustee of that tax money...the tax that I paid...until it is sent the appropriate entity. But, they in no way paid the tax. I did.

Not true, a tax places a wedge between the price paid and the amount received. You can try all you want but the laws of supply and demand determine who pays the tax, not regulations and line items.

Again, isn't roughly 50% of this money paid by your employees? Aren't you just the trustee of this money until you cut a check?

Unless your operation is quite a bit different that those I've experienced, you're just a "collector and forwarder" but not a payer of most what you've outlined.

Same fallacy.

 

[dmspilot]

Capital gains are not Ordinary income.

Did I imply they were?

 

[weilke]

Not true, a tax places a wedge between the price paid and the amount received. You can try all you want but the laws of supply and demand determine who pays the tax, not regulations and line items.



Same fallacy.

And it's the hotel owner who has to deal with forwarding the tax, the various reports and reporting forms, the rates that change depending on the weather and the unpaid work of dealing with audits. If the town wants their 12 bucks on everyones hotel bill, they should send around a tax collector to take it from each customer. Or just way-lay them on the way out of town.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Do you pay or do your customers pay? At almost all the mo-hotels I've stayed at the "hotel/motel/restaurant tax" was clearly added onto the bill. The mo-hotel operator was just a trustee of that tax money...the tax that I paid...until it is sent the appropriate entity. But, they in no way paid the tax. I did.

Ah, I see you've drank the gummint koolaid. I once believed as you believe. Unfortunately, experience teaches that there is no such thing as a "flow-through" tax.

Trust me, I pay every dime of that tax -- it's all semantics.

Think of it this way -- if I didn't have to pay that 13% tax to the gummint, I could keep it for myself...right? Thus, I am paying it -- period. It's just a game the government plays, trying to make this tax seem more "fair".

Again, isn't roughly 50% of this money paid by your employees? Aren't you just the trustee of this money until you cut a check?

Right. See example A, above. More koolaid.

Unless your operation is quite a bit different that those I've experienced, you're just a "collector and forwarder" but not a payer of most what you've outlined.

More koolaid. The only way this assertion makes sense is if I can unilaterally raise my prices 13% more to cover the cost of this tax.

Unfortunately, competitive pressures effectively prevents me from doing so. Thus, the tax is coming out of my pocket.

I sure do agree on that one. "First in pollution & last in literacy". What's there not to like!?!? More detail from 2009 stats:

Tax Revenue Raised Per Capita = 49th

This is a good thing.

Average Teacher Salary = 49th

My kid's school is excellent. Why pay more than it's worth?

Current Expenditures Per Student = 44th

See above.

Percent of Adult Population With a [HS] Diploma = 50th

Lots of new illegal immigrants here. What did you expect in a border state, in the absence of an effective national immigration policy?

Percentage of Uninsured Children = 1st

See above.

Percentage of Children Overweight = 5th

Corpus Christi (25 miles from here) is the fattest city in America. Yuck.

Teenage Birth Rate = 1st

See above.

Percentage of Women with Health Insurance = 50th

See above.

Percentage of Population Uninsured = 1st

See above.

Average Credit Score = 50th

See above.

Air Pollution Emissions = 1st

It's funny how if you want good-paying manufacturing jobs, they come with a downside. Still, I've been all over the state, and will attest to the fact that "emissions" are a tiny, tiny fraction of what they were in Wisconsin when I was a young lad...

Amount of [VOC's] Released into Air = 1st

I don't even know what that is, so I shan't worry about it.

Amount of Toxic Chemicals Released into Water = 1st

Really? Well, we all seem to have fresh water to drink, even at the height of the drought, so I guess I shan't worry about that, either.

Amount of Recognized Cancer-Causing Carcinogens Released into Air = 1st

Gotta die of something.

Amount of Hazardous Waste Generated = 2nd

Dang...somebody beat us?

Amount of Carbon Dioxide Emissions = 1st

Must be all the hot air coming out of Austin.

By the way...I do take this personal (in case you can't already tell)...please don't ever make unsubstantiated and public accusastions that I'm dishonest ever again. Conversely, maybe you can chalk up your own experience with contractors to (what mom used to always say) "water seeks its own level".

I don't believe I ever said anything about you personally -- I don't know you from Adam. I'm sure you are the greatest contractor in the entire world. (That's what "nothing personal" actually MEANS, incidentally...)

BTW: Back in 1999 I did run across a trustworthy, caring, and honest building contractor. I hired his company to put a roof on my house, and he did a great job. He showed up on time, billed fairly, spoke respectfully and courteously, cleaned everything up when he was done, and provided average to above-average workmanship without flaws.

Since then, however, mine has been a uniformly dismal experience with building contractors of all kinds -- paving, plumbing, electrical, framing, and carpentry -- in three different states, in four different businesses.

Your mileage may vary, of course -- perhaps I'm just the unluckiest guy in the world -- but my opinions have been forged in the fire of bitter and expensive disappointment. Thus, I have learned to do all of the various trades, not because I wanted to, but because I had to if I wanted to survive.

 

[skidoo]

Did I imply they were?

No. My response was just a statement that had nothing to do with anything. Such a statement that can be open to interpretation and the point of ambiguity could have and should have been made better without quoting you. I'll try to control myself next time...

 

[timwinters]

Not true, a tax places a wedge between the price paid and the amount received. You can try all you want but the laws of supply and demand determine who pays the tax, not regulations and line items.

Only if different hotels in the same market have different taxes. When all hotels in a city or area are playing by the same rules then it's a non-factor.

Same fallacy.

So, I pay my employees mininum wage, but out of that minimum wage, I hold out the payroll taxes and I forward those taxes on to the gov't at a later date. But, magically, somehow, between the time I withheld that money from my employees and forwarded to the gov't, that money became mine and now I feel that I paid that tax instead of my employee.

I got it now.

EDIT: By the way, I buy your argument when it's a US mfgr competing against Chinese mfgrs who only pay $1/day or $10/day or whatever. But I don't buy your argument when it's a hotel competing against other hotels in the same area that are playing by the same rules and have the same taxes.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Only if different hotels in the same market have different taxes. When all hotels in a city or area are playing by the same rules then it's a non-factor.

No, it's not a non-factor. It keeps the cost of staying in a hotel ridiculously, artificially high. It reduces the quality of your stay, by reducing the profitability of the industry.

By your way of thinking, we should just add a 20% tax on to your cost of building another auto-parts store. That won't hurt you at all, since, after all, you're just "holding" that money from your customer -- it's not like YOU are paying it at all.

So, I pay my employees mininum wage, but out of that minimum wage, I hold out the payroll taxes and I forward those taxes on to the gov't at a later date. But, magically, somehow, between the time I withheld that money from my employees and forwarded to the gov't, that money became mine and now I feel that I paid that tax instead of my employee.

That's exactly how it works, in the real world of business. The separation of those monies is entirely artificial -- just something that the government invented one day, back in 1913, to make tax paying feel "better".

Although in many ways it's more fun to believe as you believe, you may want to sit down with your accountant a bit more often. She will give you "the Red pill" that will give you your first good, hard look at how the sausage factory of government tax collection really works.

On the other hand, forget it. If your business is so profitable that you don't need to know this sort of stuff, you're better off letting her deal with it.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Only if different hotels in the same market have different taxes. When all hotels in a city or area are playing by the same rules then it's a non-factor.

As a consumer, if I find that add-on taxes make staying at any of those hotels not worth my while, I'll spend the money elsewhere or keep it in my pocket. The tax-on-revenue undermines the competitiveness of hoteliers with respect to all other demands for those dollars which have tax-on-profit.

(Jay's in even worse situation in that his hotel doesn't target travelers on their way to some destination, but is the destination.)

 

[dmspilot]

Only if different hotels in the same market have different taxes. When all hotels in a city or area are playing by the same rules then it's a non-factor.

Well, no. If all hotels have the same tax then the entire hotel industry suffers. Maybe a different example would help you. Think cigarettes. Can you honestly say that the high cigarette sales taxes, which are "paid by smokers", have zero effect on the finances of manufacturers and tobacco farmers? If the taxes were wholly paid by the sellers, would they really have zero effect on the consumers?

So, I pay my employees mininum wage, but out of that minimum wage, I hold out the payroll taxes and I forward those taxes on to the gov't at a later date. But, magically, somehow, between the time I withheld that money from my employees and forwarded to the gov't, that money became mine and now I feel that I paid that tax instead of my employee.

That's not anything remotely close to what I said.

 

[Skylane81E]

Must be all the hot air coming out of Austin.

Ok THAT was funny!

 

[flyer]

Im gearing up to be a owner again. Im getting all things ready to start up a new aircraft repair shop. Ive had a repair shop in the past and closed it on the thinking it wouldn't last, and went out earning a W2. The bad part is the W2 jobs didnt last as long as my own operation did, so after chasing five W2 jobs im calling it quits and starting my own operation again and not going to look back.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

No, it's not a non-factor. It keeps the cost of staying in a hotel ridiculously, artificially high. It reduces the quality of your stay, by reducing the profitability of the industry.

So instead of giving it to the government, I give it to you. I (or generally my company) still have to spend X dollars.

 

[dmspilot]

How could I have forgot this one...the Luxury Tax enacted "on wealthy consumers" in 1990.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/07/business/falling-tax-would-lift-all-yachts.html

In 1991, sales of luxury boats dropped 70 percent from 1990's level, while overall boat sales fell 18 percent.

"The luxury tax really hurt us," said William J. Healey, the president of the Viking Yatch Company in New Gretna, N.J.

 

[alaskaflyer]

If one answers the question in the thread title in the affirmative but refuses to **** and moan about taxes would that contribute to or detract from the community discussion?

 

[Jim Logajan]

If one answers the question in the thread title in the affirmative but refuses to **** and moan about taxes would that contribute to or detract from the community discussion?

Jay posed a question in the body of the first post to this thread that I believe should have answered your question almost immediately.

 

[Anthony]

If one answers the question in the thread title in the affirmative but refuses to **** and moan about taxes would that contribute to or detract from the community discussion?

Taxes were part of the premise of Jay's post as others have stated. It is a major cost to business, and one of which is used for dubious, and sometimes illegal purposes. As a LEO, I would think this should concern you, no matter where our paycheck comes from.

 

[Bob Noel]

If one answers the question in the thread title in the affirmative but refuses to **** and moan about taxes would that contribute to or detract from the community discussion?

Yes.

 

[Jay Honeck]

As a consumer, if I find that add-on taxes make staying at any of those hotels not worth my while, I'll spend the money elsewhere or keep it in my pocket. The tax-on-revenue undermines the competitiveness of hoteliers with respect to all other demands for those dollars which have tax-on-profit.

Precisely. As usual, Jim, you have a way of cutting to the quick of an argument.

(Jay's in even worse situation in that his hotel doesn't target travelers on their way to some destination, but is the destination.)

It's funny -- there were actually nine DAYS in July where we brought in more revenue than we have for the entire month of December to date. Which is why we call this "remodeling season"...

Ironically, this is when the weather is nicest here, IMHO.

 

[wabower]

But all the taxes on the hospitality/travel industry are based on the same concept. Taxing authorities feel safe in imposing them because they are paid by non-residents who aren't around to complain and/or vote against them in the next election.

As a consumer, if I find that add-on taxes make staying at any of those hotels not worth my while, I'll spend the money elsewhere or keep it in my pocket. The tax-on-revenue undermines the competitiveness of hoteliers with respect to all other demands for those dollars which have tax-on-profit.

(Jay's in even worse situation in that his hotel doesn't target travelers on their way to some destination, but is the destination.)

 

[timwinters]

But all the taxes on the hospitality/travel industry are based on the same concept. Taxing authorities feel safe in imposing them because they are paid by non-residents who aren't around to complain and/or vote against them in the next election.

Bingo,

Taxation without representation.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Bingo,

Taxation without representation.

Yeah, when people ***** about paying 13% tax here in Port Aransas, I remind them that San Antonio charges 17%.

It sucks all around.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Ok, so leaving out the bed tax issues and the taxes you collect on behalf of your employees which I think are red herrings myself, what do you think is your effective total tax rate - the total that you send out the door to local, state and federal tax authorities, expressed as a percentage of gross?

I really am curious.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Ok, so leaving out the bed tax issues and the taxes you collect on behalf of your employees which I think are red herrings myself, what do you think is your effective total tax rate - the total that you send out the door to local, state and federal tax authorities, expressed as a percentage of gross?

I really am curious.

I'm curious too - I'm in the software business and that number is probably easier for me to compute since I probably have fewer types of taxes to pay than a hotelier. It also helps that I do all my own accounting (with the help of Peachtree software) so I can compute an estimate fairly quickly. For my company, it works out to sending ~22% of every dollar of revenue to various governments.