Any Advice on KHND Henderson in Las Vega?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
I want to fly to Henderson in Las Vegas for my dad's 88th birthday. I know winds can be REALLY bad there. Already this morning at 6:45am, it's gusting to 25knots / up to 9knot crosswind. By 10am, gusts are expected to 38 knots. Gosh, if this were down the runway, I'd be nearly stopped if I did a full stall landing!

I've always been told to "leave early" for desert locations to avoid the winds. But this is ridiculous.

Anyone out there have Vegas experienced? Should I just forget it and go Southwest?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I want to fly to Henderson in Las Vegas for my dad's 88th birthday. I know winds can be REALLY bad there. Already this morning at 6:45am, it's gusting to 25knots / up to 9knot crosswind. By 10am, gusts are expected to 38 knots. Gosh, if this were down the runway, I'd be nearly stopped if I did a full stall landing!

I've always been told to "leave early" for desert locations to avoid the winds. But this is ridiculous.

Anyone out there have Vegas experienced? Should I just forget it and go Southwest?
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I love flying to Vegas. One of the coolest most interesting places to fly. I sure wouldn't go Southwest. Where are you coming from, in what, timeframe?
 
I'm going KVNY - KHND 6/27 early am in a 182.
 
Unfortunately the runways at Henderson are not aligned with the nominal wind direction. The old single runway was better aligned. I don’t know why they changed the direction when they added the new runways several years ago. Even the three runways at KVGT are slightly misaligned from the nominal wind direction.

For flight planning I added windalert dot com to the sites I check. Lots of good info on wind speed, gusts, direction and archived info. It is most reliable 3 days prior which is ample time to plan for an alternate destination. Probably not enough time to book a flight on Southwest unless you want to spend $$. If it looks too bad I usually just suck it up and drive from So Cal.
 
Thanks for the great advice, SoCal! I wondered about this, especially KHND. They built such a nice airport, but there's always a hefty crosswind. At 5:30am this morning, it's already gusting and exceeds the demonstrated capabilities of a 182.

KVGT has looked marginally better the past 3 days....seems to at least have some runway options and gets windy later (so far this morning, it's nearly calm). All things considered, if it doesn't get better, I'll either take off super early or drive.

Will check out the wind site.

Very much appreciated!
 
VWGhiaBob said:
All things considered, if it doesn't get better, I'll either take off super early or drive.
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Good luck! VNY-HND in a 182 sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me!
 
why not just land at LAS? What you spend on taxis to and from will cover the higher facility and fuel charges . . . early am as in 8a arrival is not that busy . . .
 
Interesting idea, Comanche. I've just heard KLAS HATES us single engine guys and ATC does everything they can to keep us OUT. Not true?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Interesting idea, Comanche. I've just heard KLAS HATES us single engine guys and ATC does everything they can to keep us OUT. Not true?
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I think that's a joke, check the fees and you'll see what I mean. Try KVGT as an alternative, much closer. I've never not been able to get in there.
 
I stopped by Henderson when I was out in Vegas for a business trip a few years ago, hoping to snag a CFII and take a sightseeing trip. Man, that wind was whipping! The winds had to be every bit of 40 kts sustained. The aircraft on tie downs were rocking and rolling. Someone sure knew their Boy Scout knots, because I thought for sure one of them
was going to become airborne.

Instead I did some hangar flying, bought a sectional (I love studying those things, plus I wanted to find Area 51 ;) and hit the bar.
 
I've heard KVGT airspace is challenging...navigating around the Bravo...

Will have to pull out my sectional / TAC (I mean pull it up...on Foreflight).
 
Go into LAS. The approach to 19L/19R is parallel to the strip and a great view.

Go IFR if possible. I've had "delays" that amounted to denials when VFR, but never IFR.

Signature is the FBO for a day-trip and Atlantic is the FBO for overnights (based on their fees). Buy the minimum gallons of fuel and yes, it'll be a wash with cab fare / rental car.
 
Thanks, Dans...will have to hold off on IFR...workin' on it!
 
Try not to die on the rocks south of the field. I almost did, classic night into terrain thing. Thankfully the GPWS sounded and saved my life. I was shocked when I realized how close we were! One of the very few times GPWS has saved me.
 
Definitely watch the winds... I'm used to sustained high winds in Wichita, but on takeoff several years ago a HUGE quartering gust hit me on the takeoff roll out of nowhere, and started to lift the upwind wing before my rotation speed. I managed to "hop" off the ground with the stall speed blaring and crab into the wind while staying in ground effect and gaining speed... it worked out OK and happened so fast I didn't really have time to think. Fortunately whatever I did worked without scraping metal... The ATIS was advertising something like 25 knots more-or-less down the runway at the time while I was taxiing to the active, and no gusts.

Behind me was a Cirrus at the runup area and I suspect he watched my exciting departure. He asked for a wind check and the tower responded with something like "50 knot gust from 250 within the last minute" and he said he would wait a while before asking for a takeoff clearance.

Other considerations... a few years ago they had a free shuttle service to the strip, but it only left 3 times a day. I had called ahead to get my name on a list for the 4:00 run or whenever it was, and landed at 3:55. The shuttle left while I was exiting the plane, and said there was a grumpy pax that had been waiting since shortly after the 1:00 run left and they didn't want to hold it any longer, so they just created another ****ed-off customer. You cannot ride the shuttle back to the FBO, either, so you're looking at a $40-ish cab ride.

Next time I'll try the big airport or the other one north of town.
 
I'll throw a "yawn" in here to counter all the bad stuff. We flew into KHND and the worst part of it was the TRACON trying to descend me into the ridge line to the East at night.

I said we'd be lower as soon as I could see city lights on the other side and they changed their tune to getting confirmation from me and the 737 aimed at me on his base leg for McCarran that we both saw each other.

At night. Where he had enough lights on to light up all the way to the Dam. Yeah. Not a problem maintaining our own separation, thanks.

As far as weather goes, it was hot. And gusty. But nothing crazy or out of control. And they greet ya with a nice cold bottle of water and a golf cart to haul your luggage inside. They take your fuel order and don't fuel until just before you're planning to depart to not have heating/expansion of fuel have it running everywhere on your dime.

Cabs are easiest. They used to also have rental cars there. The shuttle is rarely on time nor convenient. Vegas has always been a cab town. Considering the refueling costs of a 182, and a hotel in Vegas, plus maybe a show or a nice dinner out or whatever, the cab ride is bupkis.

Go, fly, have fun. It's the desert. It'll be hot and bumpy in summer. Bring lots of water to drink. Or pour on yourself. Haha.
 
Its really not that big of a deal. flown into hnd several times in a saratoga with no issues. Don't forget to report (usually a 2mi i think) and fly the plane ALL the way to the ground. Its a nice little airport with friendly staff.
 
I've flown into both Henderson and North Las Vegas quite a few times. I recommend either, both are top notch.
 
Did did the same thing one night after flying in from Atlanta, scared the crap out of myself!:yikes: It was maybe, 10 years ago, but I was approaching from the east and for some reason over flew the runway and flew a right hand pattern, right at those big rocks!:eek: I think I was just tired, luckily I'm here to type about it! :nono:

Captain said:
Try not to die on the rocks south of the field. I almost did, classic night into terrain thing. Thankfully the GPWS sounded and saved my life. I was shocked when I realized how close we were! One of the very few times GPWS has saved me.
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What is the advantage of Henderson over North Las Vegas?

(Assuming one is heading to the Strip?)
 
Flown to HND 4 times, my approach is from the southwest, overall I find it to not be a difficult flight, but I've never done it in anything other than Day VMC, the mountains south of the airport do come up quick, and near the California and Nevada border there are some pretty decent hills as well. My point being that it is very nice to see that you are over the hills. I've not yet had trouble with the winds out there, arriving once on a warm Sunday afternoon, a warm Saturday afternoon, and two pleasant morning arrivals (one Saturday, one Sunday).

Additionally, because the Class B drops as you get closer to HND you can't just climb as high as you might like to get over all the hills, I have been cleared into class B twice there, and twice told to remain clear, if you are told to remain clear there's a relatively narrow band where you are below the shelf and above the surface minimums.

It's a beautiful terminal, and if you buy 20 gallons of fuel they waive the first overnight parking fee. Also, it's full service so if you just give them your tail number they'll fill you up so you're ready to go whenever you are arrive. I think from SoCal, it really is the only way to go, if money is at all a concern; VGT seems even more complex with the Class B and doable, but why bother since it will probably take longer to get there from the south, and McCarran I understand is not particularly cheap.

It is a pretty expensive taxi ride to the strip though, fortunately, I've never needed that but you may want to plan on renting a car, if memory serves Hertz is on site.

Also the long runway is pretty darn long, so if you are concerned about the winds I'd just carry a little extra, emphasis on little, speed and using up more of the runway, of course coming out to the desert and getting practice on crosswinds is never a bad idea!
 
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None, and I can't remember why we went there that one time. It might have been cheaper fuel or something. But, North Las Vegas is where I would go if I were going to the strip. Henderson maybe more convienent for folks flying VFR? It is a long ride to town vs VGT and IIRC they had a free shuttle to the hotels from VGT and I paid a cab from HND. :dunno:
JoseCuervo said:
What is the advantage of Henderson over North Las Vegas?

(Assuming one is heading to the Strip?)
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If we're talking FBO's I hate them both. I'd opt for KLAS every time but I don't pay the ramp fees...

KHND and KVGT are both county owned and it totally shows in the level of service. Sit around 'do nothings' who only get motivated to swipe the credit cards. As facilities go KHND is better. They have a van that will actually take you somewhere. KVGT thinks it's funny to offer you a ride and then drop you off at the airport boundary and then watch you try to cross an 8 lane highway carrying bags to get to your hotel.
 
Bob - at the end of the day where does Dad live? Is he coming to get you?

If he lives in North Las Vegas then go there - if he lives south near HND then go there - if he lives in town - then land @ LAS - go mid morning or early to beat the heat - stay over I-15 [which means essentially Rialto, APLES DAG LAS and there you are] and it'll work out fine - LAS does not get real busy til afternoon usually so if you avoid the morning 6-9a push and then the afternoon / evening arrivals its usually ok to land there.

I would make a strong effort to avoid surprising LAS approach with a VFR arrival - take FF right out of VNY - the decide to either go north of LHS into the high desert and then over DAG or along the San Gabriel Valley like I noted above. Either way I'd make sure that I was talking to SoCal / LA Center to get the handoff to LAS.

If you have any trouble getting in VFR do what you can but then call QC at LAS Tracon and ask why you were denied - I don't understand why LAS is so hard to deal with - VFR is really not a major interruption since spacing is not as stringent and you can see and avoid. . . . when dealing with Chicago and the other places that don't like VFR I tend to tell them what I am doing - "90P, with XX ATIS inbound for landing 'Class B airport' - being assertive tends to work a lot better than being tentative - it implies that you know what you are doing. . . .
 
Guys and gals...thanks for all the advice. You really helped me decide. I have also been watching the METARS / TAF's for about a week. Judging from those and some of the posts above, I'm concerned I'd have to cancel at the last minute. I decided to do a KHND trip another time and bought a cheap Southwest ticket.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Guys and gals...thanks for all the advice. You really helped me decide. I have also been watching the METARS / TAF's for about a week. Judging from those and some of the posts above, I'm concerned I'd have to cancel at the last minute. I decided to do a KHND trip another time and bought a cheap Southwest ticket.
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where did you find a cheap southwest ticket? I have not seen one in years . . .
 
Actually...it was REALLY cheap...I had the miles!
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Thanks for the great advice, SoCal! I wondered about this, especially KHND. They built such a nice airport, but there's always a hefty crosswind. At 5:30am this morning, it's already gusting and exceeds the demonstrated capabilities of a 182.
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The demonstrated crosswind is not a limitation and isn't worth following as if it were - I think they have to prove it can handle 15 knots for certification, but they never actually test to see how much it can do, they just take it up with 15 knots and prove it can do it and publish that as the "demonstrated" number.

FWIW, I've landed a 182 in a direct crosswind gusting to 35 knots. Still didn't run out of rudder. Just fly the plane.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The demonstrated crosswind is not a limitation and isn't worth following as if it were - I think they have to prove it can handle 15 knots for certification, but they never actually test to see how much it can do, they just take it up with 15 knots and prove it can do it and publish that as the "demonstrated" number.



FWIW, I've landed a 182 in a direct crosswind gusting to 35 knots. Still didn't run out of rudder. Just fly the plane.
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Now that's crazy talk! ;)

But to play devil's advocate, should you bend some metal or some human in a crosswind landing accident, would the insurance company or plaintiff look at it as a limitation?
 
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No Boogiemen or winds out of the usual at KHND. Just make sure you are in tune with the Class Bravo and terrain. I'd suggest checking it out with Google Earth. We've rented a car, and picked/drop-off right there. Airport staff was friendly and accommodating.
BTW, my thoughts on X-wind landings changed a lot after watching episodes of "Flying Wild Alaska". Be safe, but know that your bird is capable of way more than "demonstrated". I've done 28-34 kts direct in a LSA!
 
nddons said:
Now that's crazy talk! ;)

But to play devil's advocate, should you bend some metal or some human in a crosswind landing accident, would the insurance company or plaintiff look at it as a limitation?
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No - Because it's not a limitation.

I wish they wouldn't even publish it. I'm not sure they do for all types, they just have to demonstrate it.

In fact, this is what the Mooney Ovation POH says:

"DEMONSTRATED CROSS WIND IS 13 KNOTS (THIS IS NOT A LIMITATION)"
 
My limitation is when I run out of rudder.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Guys and gals...thanks for all the advice. You really helped me decide. I have also been watching the METARS / TAF's for about a week. Judging from those and some of the posts above, I'm concerned I'd have to cancel at the last minute. I decided to do a KHND trip another time and bought a cheap Southwest ticket.
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I'm glad you had a cheap backup plan. Driving is usually my backup plan for Vegas from SoCal. Unfortunately the TAF forecast period is so short it isn't practical for advanced planning. That's why I use other online wind forecast resources.

I think the past few days of high winds at KHND were a fluke compared to typical June average. My last flight there was January, that's when the winds are almost nil. Nice airport, and CSR were fair to excellent.
 
I have a PHX to HND flight planed for late October so hopefully the winds will not be too much an issue
 
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